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+--- Thread: The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia (/showthread.php?tid=496)
The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia - Saturnine - 04-06-2018
The typical rhetoric that is said by many zoophiles is, "It's your fault if you get caught. It will never happen to me!" Then it happens to them, and they wonder why ignoring the problem won't make people hate us any less. "Oh, but those nasty fencehoppers are to blame for tarnishing our community's reputation!" Not entirely. Your own family can out you if they wanted to, assuming they knew that much about your sexual preferences. Then the story could wind up in the news, and become big enough that people will rally for more legislation against bestiality. It's a losing scenario any way you look at it.
The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia - 30-30 - 04-06-2018
I wonder why you´re thinking that "Mr Hands incidents" are inevitable. I´d also like to know whether you think that anything we write or say makes a difference...do you really think it´s just about larger quantities of "the truth" (a.k.a. pro zoo propaganda) doing the job better, bringing us closer to "tolerance"?
Why is it always about "more this and more of that" that is seen as the solution? Say, have you heard about the daoistic principle of "wu wei", action through non action? And how would you try to calm a water surface...would you hit it with a hammer, growing more and more infuriated because that dumb water won´t calm down although you´re hammering at it like a maniac? More visibility equals the notion of an ever increasing threat of society by "zoophiles", ever thought about that? Hint: Sometimes, you don´t win a war by going full Rambo. History has proven that an outnumbered and outgunned minority will only be able to survive, to prevail when it adopts tactics of guerrilla warfare, not going full Chuck Norris.
And how exactly do you think does another "Mr Hands" incident will make anything worse than it already is? Do you really think the vast majority that already want to castrate us with a rusty nail will have the urge to castrate us twice because "Mr hands 2.0"? Yeah, I admit that even more time in prison is probably not desirable for anyone, but it still is about NOT GETTING CAUGHT. And regarding this, all I see is constant dumb actions by so called "zoophiles" literally yearning for capture and exposure. May I remind you that without those "anti zoo" laws, getting caught isn´t exactly paradise and social repercussions would still occur without those laws. Since animals won´t snitch on you, it´s entirely up to the "zoo" to create and maintain a safe environment for his orientation....would this community pleauzzze accept that simple fact? It´s not about "the laws" and "unjust society", it´s about getting smart enough to live your life without putting your animal and yourself in grave danger for "community fame", ego pampering, quick sex on some random pasture etc. pp.
Eagle, have you ever considered how much we as a community do contribute to the installation of "anti zoo" laws? By running to the resue for even the most despicable sicko caught red handed on another one´s pasture? By simply not being able to objectively view our own "fellow zoos" and their actions without that tribalistic "my tribe against your tribe" attitude, without partisanship? I always recommend looking at this whole "zoophilia" thing through the eyes of a "normal" guy, Joe Average. By doing this for a minute, you might be able to see that in fact "nothing happens in isolation" and everything that has happened in the past two decades has inevitably led to this exact point in history because no one of us seems to be able to do some self reflection, on himself, on this community , on how we are perceived in society, on what we usually do when "zoos" and society collide and what impression our actions create in society?
Compromises with society are needed and we as a community MUST change in the same amounts as we demand it from society, or nobody will give a flying f about us...legitimately, I have to add. This is not about getting "our" ways , not about safe spaces , not about "all or nothing" approaches which we´re totally not in the place to demand from society. What is needed are viable compromises with society that provide enough for BOTH sided of the conflict to be satisfied with. People don´t trust us zoos with our animals for several reasons; some of them are indeed irrational and prejudiced, but others absolutely aren´t and the criticism we face is well founded. This is a simple , non partisan truth and this community still hasn´t found out that our way out of this dilemma is to make compromises with society...or at least try to make them by offering society something Joe Average can live with without the justified fear of "legal zoophilia" will inevitably lead to not being able to keep animals outside anymore without them "made happy" within the first two seconds after the owner is out of sight. We also need a corrective mechanism that is able to stop those among us who shouldn´t even have access to their own pubic lice, let alone any other animal. We also need to realise that animal pornography is NOT a "gift to the community", but one of the main reasons why society thinks so badly of us. Pictures say more than a thousand words , you remember? So, how can we expect anyone to believe us when we say "No, it´s all entirely consentual", but a few clicks suffice to show a whole other picture? What we´re really dealing with here isn´t "unjust society", it´s our own failures, our own convenient complacencies of not speaking out loud and clear against all the grey and dark black areas "zoophilia" includes. Our failure is the total denial , the complete lack of a corrective in our community that ensures that the animal always comes first and then, the "zoo" and his emotional and sexual gratification. Our demise is excessive permissiveness, complacency, group think and trench fight mentality. We need to reestablish honesty and trustworthyness in our community or we will never achieve anything.
And please miss me with that "fascism" mumbo jumbo...it´s NOT fascism just because you don´t get your ways. Mind you, I´m German and if I know about one thing, then it is fascism. And don´t get me wrong here, I´m as far left as you can get, but I´m one of the "old lefties", not those moronic SJWs doing all the "equality and justice" stuff totally blind for real equality and real justice. I have principles, the SJWs only have their "culture of offense". As an anarchosocialist,even I do admit that those conservatives and alt rightists do have a point when pointing out how oppressive the so called "new left " has become. If I am a baker and don´t want to create a "gay wedding cake", it´s my right to refuse serving customers, to name just one occasion in which the "fight against oppression" has become nothing more than a fight against some oppression while going completely blind on other forms of oppression. We as a society have lost purpose and meaning, that´s the logical consequence of final stage capitalism where everything is just fun, entertainment and diversion from the empty shells humans have become. The utopia many "progressives" are fighting for isn´t an utopia, it´s just another form of hell and we just exchange dogma for another dogma...another form of oppression, only with other victims. The oppressed of today will eventually become the oppressors of tomorrow. Don´t you think that "legal zoophilia " can lead to a terrible outcome, with normals unable to keep animals outside as a form of oppression that all of you simply don´t accept as oppression because it doesn´t affect you? Aaaah, the good ol` ego, the only god wiser than any other god, more reliable than anyone else regardless of expertise. Elitism? Why is it seen as bad? Because "my total lack of knowledge is equal to your studied expertise"?
We all have to get our shit together and say goodbye to the "laissez faire" mentality. We must take responibility for our own community, even when it hurts, even when that means stepping on a whole bunch of toes. The alternative? There is none anymore, our complacency, our apathy has killed it. Regulated zoophilia with safety mechanisms for the animals involved is IMHO the only reasonable way to go and we should finally abandon that "legal free animal fucks for everyone" fantasy once and for all. This worldwide community of animal fuckers has done more than enough to justify action from the authorities; we were too lazy to correct ourselves, so the government came in to do it for us, with the usual over the top approach most governments automatically have. We shouldn´t blame "them", we should first take a long and close look towards ourselves, with open eyes, without taboos, without categoric dismissal of thoughts just because they are painful to us. Nothing happens in isolation. Not even banning acts of bestiality.
The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia - 30-30 - 04-06-2018
Quote:
41 minutes ago, Saturnine said:
The typical rhetoric that is said by many zoophiles is, "It's your fault if you get caught. It will never happen to me!" Then it happens to them, and they wonder why ignoring the problem won't make people hate us any less. "Oh, but those nasty fencehoppers are to blame for tarnishing our community's reputation!" Not entirely. Your own family can out you if they wanted to, assuming they knew that much about your sexual preferences. Then the story could wind up in the news, and become big enough that people will rally for more legislation against bestiality. It's a losing scenario any way you look at it.
Another typical rhetoric of "zoos" is this mindless "Aaargh, we NEED to go public with this!" regardless of the outcome. And please spare me with that "would, should , could" babble, Saturnine, the vast majority of "outed zoos" aren´t outed by family, they´re outed by their own irresponsibility and unhinged behaviour... why is fencehopping in the era of cheap as fuck night vision cameras even still a thing? Ah, right, greed, sexual greed and consumerism. Why is it still a thing that a "zoo" feels the need to publish animal porn of himself in the era of PRISM? Ah, I see, egotistic irresponsibility. Fact is that this is not an "either-or "scenario, but no one actually seems to realise there´s a middle way. Moderation. Not clinging to "I MUUUST COME OUT to someone, anyone" for ego pampering purposes. I lived through my entire puberty and early adulthood without even one person knowing my orientation. I survived because I was aware of the risks and keeping a secret also didn´t kill me...keeping a secret, an art that´s incredibly forgotten these days, if you ask me.
We all have to lose the idea of making zoophilia accessible to anybody. Zoophilia may be the one and only sexual orientation that DEMANDS more than genitals, it demands brains. Zoophilia can quickly devolve into human centered bestiality, so we zoos always have to duty to check ourselves over and over again if we actually crossed the line between mutual enjoyment and plain abuse of animals...no other orientation has this, at least not in the same large amounts. Zoophilia also demands constant self reflection from the involved zoo, it also demands vast amounts of knowledge even BEFORE anyone should lay hands on an animal. It demands a way-above-average ability to control yourself in order to not slip into animal abuse, the ability to control yourself even in the "heat of the moment". All those things are NEEDED, making zoophilia accessible to everyone may look like paradise for bestialists and zoos of all colours, but it surely is absolute hell for the animals. Even one animal suffering from a "zoo" is one too much...they´re living beings with a mind of their own, not sex toys, not tolerable "collateral damage" on the "zoo rights" battlefield.
Without a solution for all the grey areas, without willingness to stray from the usual path of "all or nothing" , it surely is a losing scenario. But I see much of the blame in our own community, in our own stubbornness, hoenstly being surprised that society does not appreciate our usual "free animal fuckery for all" battlecries, our ineptness to self reflect, the total lack of self criticism, the excessive partisanship....and last but not least, the common fear of abandoning the old and already failed methods, the neophobia of denying any different approach. Stubborn as a little kid..."No,No,No, mommy, I WANT that candy bar! Waaaahhhh!" What surely is a huge factor in this losing scenario is our ideology ridden dogma that seems to be sacrosanct for many. "No! Don´t give in to society, not one little bit! Either they let us have all our ways or ´dem just zoophobe hater asshole fascist eejits." Again, finding compromises is the solution...but I guess, the real solution is more pressure on all the "zoos" until the pressure is high enough that actual operational thinking finally takes over and the ideological "sex lib" brainwash is no more. Even if it means to be satisfied with small goosesteps towards tolerance, it still is way better and more promising than this stubborn and infantile insistance on "Either we are granted everything or screw you, society!".
The online "zoo" community came to life around the end of the eighties/beginning of the nineties and is roughly about 30 years old now. I guess it´s about time this community grows up and starts acting like an adult, not like a petulant child unwilling to compromise, unwilling to see its own flaws and faults. Only then we will change our odds to gain tolerance from naught to a significantly higher percentage.
The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia - AmoreBestia - 04-06-2018
30-30, these was a zoophile that was interviewed about the shape of water.
He was a terrible model for zoophilia and painted an overall bad image for all of them. Going public is, in some capacities necessary in that way. You need good representatives on the forefront so Brennans aren't getting interviews, but instead people that are well spoken and careful in what they say. See, PR happens with or without you. If a journalist wants a zoophile interview, they will find one and will get that interview and will take the first one they can find... which is typically going to be a well known one. It's better if they can find someone that knows what needs to be said and will speak such that they entertain the best interests of the community while still being able to do so with honesty.
The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia - 30-30 - 04-07-2018
AB, it´s the typical dilemma again...those who would have good things to say keep quiet and those who usually have more yearning for fame than decent contributions are the ones in front of the cameras. But is talking the solution? I doubt that. It honestly doesn´t matter what bloke is the "zoo expert", we all know how the media machinery works and that sensationalism most often prevails over properly researched and verified fact based journalism. Knowing that, I wonder why even one single genuine zoo would hop in front of a camera...there´s no way of winning this game as it is already rigged from the start. Doesn´t matter how well versed the players are we send in, we cannot win that game, we can only hope for the damage done by playing that game is kept at minimal levels from a well versed, intelligent, unbiased, honest and outspoken person. I still say that our basical strategy is what´s wrong...we should not play rigged games in illusionary hope for something that will not happen anytime by sticking to this strategy.
PR only happens "with or without me" for simple reasons: stupidity and lack of discipline within our community. I´d prefer if "journalists" wouldn´t find ANYONE to play with them, I´d prefer an organisation that does background checks of the journalists it is talking with before such PR is happening. Organised, without any stray renegades just doing damage to boost their ego, their self perceived "importance" as the "zoo expert". (A big fat Hello! goes out to ZETA and MIchael Kiok here...)
Honestly, AB, I´d be happy beyond happiness for just NOT LOSING, not failing miserably everytime someone "zoo" gives an interview. Just that, not "winning", just not losing immeasurably would be real progress. But I´m probably hoping for the impossible here, hoping for "zoos" to curb back on their ego, for "zoos" making reasonable decisions when asked for any public appearance etc....and why the hell does ANY zoo find it appropriate to offer his "expertise" on (pardon my alliteration here) the famous fantasy fishcreature fucking film? What has this film to do with zoophilia at all? It´s a friggin´ anthro fish monster, not an animal!
The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia - Eagle - 04-08-2018
Not talking leaves your message for others to write. Silence assents to whatever others say and decide without your voice.
The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia - Saturnine - 04-08-2018
What I find to be ironic in a sense is that the government will inevitably shut down this forum, and it will be the effect of these anti-zoo laws.
The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia - 30-30 - 04-08-2018
No, not in this case, Eagle. One may go through all these "rosey tinted glasses" talking points in favour of zoophilia, but all of those "pro agruments" will look like fucking lies to every outsider who is backchecking all that has been said on "zoophile" sites...like BF, for example. Violent porn with clearly visible violations of our "zoo ideals", fencehopping also totally neglecting any self containment and reason of our "zoo ideals"....well, just talking won´t do the trick. It has to be honest talking that doesn´t leave out all the criticisable excesses of our community. But just imagine someone who has a perspective similar to mine and does adress all the grey areas , the inconsistencies, the discrepancies between talking and action in the zoo community...I´m pretty sure you´d all rip this guy another butthole in an instant for "not talking in our favour".
So I stand by what I´ve said: with the current shape of our community, not talking still is the better option here. "Anything you say can and will be used against you"...remember this? Before we even can think of picking up the fight with society, we should ALL (every single zoo) stop handing out ammunition to our critics and enemies.
@Saturnine: Ridiculous to think this small forum would gather any attention by the government at all. There are more rewarding targets out there, like Beastforum that´s a huge resource and swapping place for animal porn. Don´t you think the government will rather focus workforce on an internationally working distribution platform for illegal porn....before everything else like just a few more than a handful of zoos chatting with each other on a teeny tiny private forum not easy to incidentally stumble across?
The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia - AmoreBestia - 04-08-2018
The same argument against it was used by another person I know. Of course, it was my mistake for not including this detail in the first place after that conversation. The simple solution is to encourage people at little to no risk to push their contributions; eg no longer practicing or EoL zoos. Dilute "Wet Goddess" with more sane literature written over a zoophile's lifetime and published at a point when there's insufficient evidence to convict left, not enough time remaining for it to matter, or post mortem. Even if a well spoken zoo only has five years of life to respond to interviews and such, that's still a boon to the cause
There's no expectation of some kind of PR victory mind, there never was. Spin will happen either way but loathe as the ones that can keep up with appearances may be to do it, it's necessary to avoid absolute PR disasters like Brennan. And, frankly, it's not out of the question to defeat the spin, at least in the capacity that they can't turn your words against you. With Brennan's interview, the journalists didn't have to do anything, he spun the article against zoos with his own words. The ones that are choosy with their words and give antagonistic journalists a run for their money will make people take notice in a good way either way, and help keep people on the fence closer to your side.
The trouble with NOT publicly discussing zoophilia - heavyhorse - 04-08-2018
Don't really know how to do the EoL thing though. Sure, if you know you're terminal. But the wonderful and literate people I've known that went away did so by surprise.