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+--- Thread: Are we our own worst enemy? (/showthread.php?tid=371)
Are we our own worst enemy? - caikgoch - 11-20-2018
There is a giant logical mistake in that line of thought and we will stay heavily handicapped until we recognize it. I really am an "old zoo". I remember parts of the civil rights struggles both black and gay people went through (and still do some places). I have talked with and studied some of the participants. My own family includes a number of "wops" who had their own struggles a century ago.
Doug Spink, for all his failings, is a Zoo. So was Ken and Ebon and most of those people we tell those horror stories about. Think of it this way: is a thirty four year old male that prefers sex with pre-teen girls not a heterosexual? By trying to deny the sadists and thrill seekers we affirm to the rest of society that our orientation has a dark side. Since we aren't dealing with it, it is only logical for them to deal with it by wholesale legal suppression. Why do you think that all of the recent laws have colored themselves as prevention?
Find an old gay and ask them how they got rid of the pedo stigma. It's where we need to go next.
Are we our own worst enemy? - 30-30 - 11-20-2018
There are two basic logical mistakes you make when you´re trying to share your line of thought. First one is that you totally submit to the equalisation of bestiality and zoophilia. There is a qualitative difference between those two words, this is not about "are pedos heteros/homos too?", but about emotional depth of love towards the animal that is present, regardless of gender...and by inventing that stupid "zoosexual" crap, we made it even easier for all to conflate meanings. Hetero/homo is about genders...is "animal" a gender now? "I am a heterosexual zoophile" is nowhere near a tautology, right?
The second mistake you make is comparing the resistance zoos are facing to the LGBT struggle. Simply copying the tactics of the LGBT won´t work out....there is almost nothing we zoos can "learn" from the LGBT community. Our problems with society are based on entirely different frictions we have with society. In the LGBT struggle, it was never about power imbalance and informed consent, at least not to that very same degree that it is in bestiality/zoophilia. We have to invent a whole new strategy, not just lazily copying blueprints of the LGBT one. Zoophilia is NOT "just another segment of human sexuality", it´s different. Completely different. Unless this essential truth isn´t internalised, we keep running with our heads against the massive concrete walls of society´s rejection.
Are we our own worst enemy? - WinterGreenWolf - 11-21-2018
Quote:
16 hours ago, caikgoch said:
There is a giant logical mistake in that line of thought and we will stay heavily handicapped until we recognize it. I really am an "old zoo". I remember parts of the civil rights struggles both black and gay people went through (and still do some places). I have talked with and studied some of the participants. My own family includes a number of "wops" who had their own struggles a century ago.
Doug Spink, for all his failings, is a Zoo. So was Ken and Ebon and most of those people we tell those horror stories about. Think of it this way: is a thirty four year old male that prefers sex with pre-teen girls not a heterosexual? By trying to deny the sadists and thrill seekers we affirm to the rest of society that our orientation has a dark side. Since we aren't dealing with it, it is only logical for them to deal with it by wholesale legal suppression. Why do you think that all of the recent laws have colored themselves as prevention?
Find an old gay and ask them how they got rid of the pedo stigma. It's where we need to go next.
I want to apologize to the older Zoo crowd and the forum at large (still pretty pissed at 30-30.. This post isn't about him..).
I did let my anger creep in a bit too much and went a bit irrational, the thing is I get sick and tired of every idea or insight put forth being shot down and threads just reeking of troll and bullshit, let alone arguments. I will not leave this forum nor will I allow someone to push me out: but I will try to be as respectful as I can possibly be, hopefully sharing some of my own life experiences and knowledge with those who want it.
I'm going to call a very shaky truce here with Mr. 30-30... But I think us not crossing paths is the best way to avoid this shit..
You have your own ideas 30, some inspirational, some informative... But I'm starting to smell a lot of bullshit, that and you've quite the well-twisted viewpoints..
Bit more on topic here...
I do think we have a good few parallels with the gay community at least (scientifically speaking, people used to call being Homosexual a 'mental disorder'), the DSM is just now removing Zoophilia (in most cases anyways) as a Mental Disorder and is now classifying it as a Paraphilia. If you're arrested in a lot of places though for a mess-up you are now pretty much forced to take a psych evaluation.
I kind of wish I had more of the 'older knowledge' and experiences under my belt Caikgoch: I was born in '87 though so some of the older civil / gay / black rights stuff is lost on me, the more nuanced things anyways.
I'm still pondering an 'open forum' for questions in some way shape or form. Need some very careful steps though. Which, sounds like a broken record: but it can't be stated enough. Witch hunts are so easy now with social medial and the propensity of others to try and Dox you.
Are we our own worst enemy? - 30-30 - 11-21-2018
"...still pretty pissed about 30-30. This post isn´t about him"...three lines later... *chuckle* [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" />
A truce? Well, I haven´t been fighting with you at all. And about "smelling bullshit", well , do you have some valid criticism besides that? Pointing out flaws in my "bullshit", maybe? Or is this just denouncing it because you don´t like the message ? I´d really prefer founded criticism here.
About the DSM and "downgrading" zoophilia from a mental disorder to a paraphilia: not much won by that, one of a million goosesteps.
About psychological evaluations: Given the fact that the DSM is using the z-word as a synonym for bestiality, psychological evaluations seem considerate and just to me. Whether we like it or not, many "zoophiles" absolutely qualify for a psych check up. The links between sexual "perversion" and psycho-/sociopathy are scientifically proven ( psycho-/sociopaths usually are sexual deviants, too; Jeffrey Dahmer, for example, is said to have had sex with the animals he "rehearsed" his sadistic routines he later became so "famous" for) while being a sexual deviant alone does not necessarily make you a psycho-/sociopath. But the connections are there and beyond doubt. And don´t forget how many members of our community identify themselves a in the Autistic spectrum or that the people who become subject to mandatory psychological checkups because they were caught are indeed their own "subspecies" within our community. It takes a certain mindset to let all reason and caution go that gets you caught and forced to run through a psychological evaluation.
"I wish I had more of the older knowledge"...that´s possible to achieve. Mankind invented a thing that is made of maaaaany sheets of paper, sheets that have printed text on them and is bound together for better user convenience. It´s called "books". Many of these "books" can be found in a strange place called "library". Among many other so called "books" , you can find many "books" on the civil rights movement, the LGBT rights movement etc. /s. Give it a try, it´s almost like reading stuff on your computer screen and you don´t even have to sit in front of the computer to read. [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" />
On your open forum: Do what you like. But don´t expect different results by doing what countless other zoos and "zoos" tried. My point still stands: social media is not the right weapon of choice to make an actual and long lasting impact.
Are we our own worst enemy? - caikgoch - 11-21-2018
"The links between sexual "perversion" and psycho-/sociopathy are scientifically proven . . "
As are the links between heterosexuality and rape.
Are we our own worst enemy? - silverwolf1 - 11-21-2018
The easiest way to not argue with some-one is to not reply to them, yet everyone who says "I won't argue with 'insert name' " still replies.
It seems at any rate we are our own worst enemy when we cannot even calmly discuss the topic at hand without resorting to personalities or talking down to your audience. We aren't idiots, don't treat us as such.
I'm not as old as some, older than others but I've a few quick thoughts on some points brought up that could use further discussion.
Are there hetero zoos? Sure, I'm one, but that doesn't preclude any correlation being drawn between us and the LGBT community's rights struggle. There are SOME similarities. Not all though. Informed consent of both parties is the stumbling block here.
Are there links to the Civil Rights Movement? I don't see it, for the Zoo or for the animal. Right now the best protection under the law the animal has is that he/ she is seen as property, wether we like that 'morally' or not. It protects our partners from random access by anyone for any purpose they choose. Given equal rights our partners could wander into any form of danger. We, whether we want to admit it or not, already have equal rights under the law.
I have other thoughts but theres a blizzard warning here so the horses must come in. Later,
sw
Are we our own worst enemy? - 30-30 - 11-21-2018
Quote:
9 hours ago, caikgoch said:
"The links between sexual "perversion" and psycho-/sociopathy are scientifically proven . . "
As are the links between heterosexuality and rape.
HAve you read the next few sentences that follow what you quoted from me? And you wonder why nobody takes us seriously....
Are we our own worst enemy? - caikgoch - 11-21-2018
Quote:
6 hours ago, silverwolf1 said:
Are there links to the Civil Rights Movement? I don't see it, for the Zoo or for the animal. Right now the best protection under the law the animal has is that he/ she is seen as property, wether we like that 'morally' or not. It protects our partners from random access by anyone for any purpose they choose. Given equal rights our partners could wander into any form of danger. We, whether we want to admit it or not, already have equal rights under the law.
The most obvious link is that am being prevented from using or enjoying my property as I desire. That is a taking.
It could also be argued that the law in Texas is ex post facto in my case because I had my horse and had an established relationship with him before the law was passed in Texas.
And the law violates both Constitutional restrictions (favors a religion) and Supreme Court precedent (Lawrence v Texas)
Are we our own worst enemy? - WinterGreenWolf - 11-22-2018
Quote:
20 hours ago, caikgoch said:
"The links between sexual "perversion" and psycho-/sociopathy are scientifically proven . . "
As are the links between heterosexuality and rape.
To my knowledge, some new research has shown that 'Animal torture' no longer directly ties in to Serial Killers, nor does 'Animal sex' tie in to Pedophilia correct? I haven't searched recently but I have heard that those two 'links' were coming under scrutiny. Then again I'm not really active in 'psych' circles as it's quite annoying to keep up with at times.
I -have- been pondering diving in to NLP (Neural linguistic Programming) though, an area of Psychology and Philosophy that revolves around communications and perspective.
I have a good friend in Australia who's got degrees on the subject.
I do think the 'downgrade' is important as well, as it (to me) serves to say that there's a more case-by-case basis for Zoophilia and not an outright declaration for someone to be 'hospitalized' for it.
Now the Big-Z is still considered a mental issue if it impairs someone's daily life -or- is the cause of a serious crime or other problem.
I still don't see us entirely as 'our own worst enemy', but you are right SW: Consent is one of our biggest stumbling points. We, as a community at-large have a lot of growing up to do and have had a -lot- of trouble in past years.
The thing that's hardest to convince people of is kind of simple if you think about it, but difficult to implement.
It's hard, virtually impossible to convince public en'mass that sex is not a 'sacred' thing, that it's not special. It's made all the more difficult when people see sex as incurring special responsibilities.
This is true for Humans, having sex means babies, money issues, social issues, physical issues.. All things humans have to take very seriously in society. To me, apart from the physical and mental preparation humans need is what makes Pedophilia *not* reasonable to act on
Zoophilia however, has none of these implications: animals can be raped, they can give or revoke consent (sometimes very painfully!) but an animal doesn't have all the issues.
No fiscal responsibility, no moral obligation (by human standards), no children to raise or educate, no job to contribute to. Now there can be power imbalance, assholes who'd abuse an animal or just use them for sexual purposes and not tend to them as they should, we have animal cruelty laws for those situations.
As I've joked at and even got angry at too, there's another powerful motivator: religion! Most anyone uses the term 'innocent' to describe an animal, most everyone will say 'the bible says.....', so we struggle on two fronts.
We struggle with overcoming religious stigma, and we struggle overcoming social stigma: again, most people see sex as having some kind of connection, they project the human issues of sex on to another creature.
Said other creatures however, don't share our senses of imagining, so the world looks different to them: their perception of time, self, environment, and morality as a whole are on another level entirely.
Are we our own worst enemy? - caikgoch - 11-22-2018
New research isn't necessary, just a look at the logic in the cited "research". That's what I am pointing out, that co-incidence is not causation especially in stupidly selected study groups.
And "consent" is 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, absolutely a red herring. If an animal is property, consent doesn't exist (and it doesn't for any other aspect of the animal's life). If consent is required for any aspect of the animal's life, it is required for all (where will that lead?).
The only standard is unnecessary pain. And the legal standard for criminal prosecution is "beyond a reasonable doubt." Please tell me how to reconcile those two.