'Small' vs. 'Big' Zoo communities: and the Great Porn Debate...

[30-30]

Hide my love life? Well, I never did, because I understood the difference between actively hiding and just not pushing it in everyone´s faces. Besides that, you simply cannot "hide" true love, the people around you will ALWAYS recognise it subconscoiusly. Like my mother did, like many of the other horseowners around me did. They all "knew" that there was more to my relationship with my mare than the usual rider-horse relation. Any yet, no one got hysterical about it...a quality of insight I´d really like our community to adopt. As I said, continue "normsplaining" my orientation to me... [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" /> 




With your tolerance for bestiality, you´re not the rule. Most normal people are disgusted by it, tolerance of using animals as simple live dildos and fleshlights is not widespread. And for people like us real zoos, the underlying anthropocentrism of most acts of bestiality is especially hard to swallow because it goes against all we believe in. For us, our animals are equals...and this is not lip service, but deeply felt truth for us. Now add how many of those bestialists claim their acts to be consentual, but totally fail actual consent simply because they lack any real in depth knowledge of the animals in question. Sticking your dick into animals does not make you into Dr Dolittle, but that´s the soundbit that´s repeated over and over again. As I said before, this is not about some sex lib ideology, this is about finding a way to more calmness and tolerance from both sides of the aisle.  




I think you´re massively misunderstanding me in my opposition to Rannoch. Rannoch for me was/is a textbook example where the illusions this community predominantly sports and supports will lead us. As I said, this kind of approach has been our dogmatic one for nearly as long as I am in this community, since the early nineties, to be precise. It has done nothing for us, it brought us to the situation we´re in at the moment. We are stuck in a dead end, and people like Rannoch go absolutely bonkers by simply mentioning that we´d better turn around to get out of the dead end situation because it violates their quasi-religious ideology. Up to this very day, I´m not sure whether Rannoch´s problems have their origins in his "zoophilia" or his "zoophilia" only was a symptom of his mental preconditions. By the way, that´s maybe the biggest challenge our community faces, to separate those whose "zoophilia" is just a symptom of deeper problems from those who are "functional perverts", who lead a rather "normal" life, who know when it is better to keep their mouths shut, who are aware of the graveness of the situation they find themselves in as zoos. 




Rannoch was/is one of those zealous hyperbolisers, paranoiac hysterisers our community listened way longer to than it is good for any community. And all of that despite the fact his only real encounter was limited to "fondling a doe" once. One he claimed to "love" beyond everything, but couldn´t find enough reason to visit again on his own. His move to come out to his parent, that led to him becoming a subject of the shrinks, is another fine example what spouting that predominant toxic ideology that sadly is this community´s dogma can lead to. The illusion of screaming "Free zoo now!" often and loud enough into the face of society....how it comes no one sees through this and realises how many among us have fallen because of this? In this sense, Rannoch and his likeminded peers are pretty much comparable to the cult of Brexit, they insist of something that will undeniably and undoubtedly hurt themselves beyond recognition, but as the quasi-religion it is, will be pursued regardless of amassing proof of failure. It´s a matter of belief, not actual observation of reality and operational approaches going after that what may not be covered by that toxic "free sex" ideology, but is ostentibly WORKING the way it is intended. I never had any personal problems with Rannoch, my problems with him are strictly limited to his self chosen function as a perpetuator of an ideology that has been demonstably failed us, harmed us and led us into that arrogant thinking society owes us anything. And that while more headlines are made by "harmless fencehoppers", by thoroughly "pornified" members of our community, by all the Aluzkies and Pinyans, the Spinks´s and all the others clinging to their illusions. It´s nice to have an ideology as it serves mental laziness perfectly, you don´t have to think ever again once you adopted it. You even blame your ideology´s failures on "the others", the "unjust" society...on everything except yourselves. Rannoch indeed was a textbook example for this. Apologetic to his own kind beyond any reason, putting all the blame for every fuckup on others. I´d expect more than that from an adult person, you know.




And you´re basically doing the very same as you have demonstrated in your post above. But it´s not true, not justified to blame "the world" here. Don´t get me wrong, I do know that society isn´t exactly "zoo friendly" but I also see pretty clearly why that is so. I do see what gives society real reason to be so hostile. Something that Rannoch and you obviously can´t .   

[covfefelake]

21 minutes ago, 30-30 said:




Hide my love life? Well, I never did, because I understood the difference between actively hiding and just not pushing it in everyone´s faces.

You see, that there is the issue.  The fact that you even make a statement like this shows you have no idea how a standard heterosexual male functions day to day.  This is a result of your oppression, whether you are aware of it or not.

21 minutes ago, 30-30 said:




Rannoch was/is one of those zealous hyperbolisers, paranoiac hysterisers our community listened way longer to than it is good for any community.

I'd wish you'd known him in person to know how wrong this reads.

21 minutes ago, 30-30 said:




 




With your tolerance for bestiality, you´re not the rule. Most normal people are disgusted by it, tolerance of using animals as simple live dildos and fleshlights is not widespread.

Well aware.  I had a good advocate for your kind in life.

21 minutes ago, 30-30 said:




And all of that despite the fact his only real encounter was limited to "fondling a doe" once.

So?  I forgot love is sex.  Contradiction much?

21 minutes ago, 30-30 said:




Up to this very day, I´m not sure whether Rannoch´s problems have their origins in his "zoophilia" or his "zoophilia" only was a symptom of his mental preconditions.

He was Autistic high-functioning (Aspergers, I think).  Beyond that, pretty normal.  His health took a sharp nosedive and he became increasingly reclusive around highschool, when he seemed to just give up on life.  According to what I have here, this was when he started being medicated.  I don't know, but it seems pretty aprarent there were factors at play beyond just his Autism.

21 minutes ago, 30-30 said:




, but couldn´t find enough reason to visit again on his own.

He literally couldn't visit on his own.  Not only that, I have evidence he tried but was "tricked" by several individuals which dissuaded him. 




Besides all that, you are aware his parents had him declared an adult child, right?  They also manipulated him out of a small fortune from what I can tell.  He was a very very sad tale, to say the least.

21 minutes ago, 30-30 said:




Apologetic to his own kind beyond any reason.

Sort of.  He was way too trusting in both life and everything.  I am not.  I do not trust the people here frankly at all.  And the vibe I get from you for example?  It's not a good one.  Sorry.  That's just how I feel.




 

20 minutes ago, 30-30 said:




Something that Rannoch and you obviously can´t .

Don't be so certain.  I understand the reasoning but I do not agree with it.

21 minutes ago, 30-30 said:




But it´s not true, not justified to blame "the world" here.

[covfefelake]

God, I hate this forum software quite well and good.  Double post.

[30-30]

Even if he hadn´t told it himself, I could easily see Rannoch was an "aspie". But that´s a core problem when this "aspie" tries to weigh in on a topic that demands actual insight into other people´s thoughtpatterns to be successful. Like a double amputee with no arms trying to compete in javelin. Rannoch absolutely was entitled to his own opinion and I cannot blame him for that. What I can blame him for was his complete ignorance of how to negotiate with society to find compromises and that an "aspie" may be the exact wrong person to do this. 




And I may repeat myself, but isn´t Rannoch in the end the one to blame for all his shortcomings regarding zoophilia? It´s him who decided to come out to his parents, obviously heavily influenced by the very same ideology he became a loud mouth for after. Isn´t Rannoch one if not THE perfect example of how this ideology goes wrong? Had he kept his mouth shut, would he been subject to the shrinks? That´s why I´m staunchly against this ideology, and as strange as it may sound, listening to my advice , my oh so despicable approach may in fact have spared him from much if not all of his suffering. Yet he made me one of his prime targets and chimed in whenever he could, on reddit and in here. As I said, very much like the Brexiteers who viciously attack any EU "foreigner" despite those EU "assholes" have the benefit of a prospering UK in the EU in their minds. They literally attack those most fiercely who show the deepest concerns about how UK will turn out once they´re off the EU. If Rannoch only met me earlier in life, before he made the poor decisions....maybe he could have been spared of all his miserable experiences, who knows...that´s one of the paradoxies in this: that those you identify as your worst "enemies" and your staunchest adversaries are in fact those who have your own wellbeing in mind the most. I´m not an asshole that is out for trolling people.  I´m not doing all this because I wanna be entertained or something. I do this because the community is my interest and I would desperately wish for this to be realised in the community. I don´t want to sell you the "legal zoophilia" snakeoil, my focus lies on something that is way too underrepresented in any zoo forum: how to survive as a zoo in the recent status quo. How to steer clear of all the perilous situations, how to avoid fuckups at all costs, how to adapt to society in a way that might not satisfy the ideologues, but will keep the zoos out of bullshit. Due to his Asperger, Rannoch never realised my true intentions behind my "hateful drivel", he never thought about the simple fact that each and ever single zoo that is listening to my advice and leading a life with his animal partner uninterrupted by authorities is a victory for us. And that abandoning even the last bit of ideology to achieve this is absolutely worth throwing the soundbits into the trash can. That we as zoos will only survive if we adapt instead of turning our forums into screech fests of "Ermergerd, he says we should change ourselves...dis wanker!" That´s my entire point, I do see things from a bigger perspective and maybe that´s my biggest fault as a member of a community that´s so entrenched in their filter bubble. Real change starts with you, and only you. Rannoch couldn´t see that and he was only one of the overwhelming majority that lacks this simple insight. That´s the whole crux of the Rannoch-30/30 relation...

[30-30]

Are you , by any chance, one of those SJWs who see oppression everywhere? Despite being a leftist way beyond the American idea of "leftists", I absolutely hate this bullshit. I am not oppressed in any way and most of us zoos aren´t either. For me , all this "oppression" is just a part of the "victimisation" tactics that are so hip today. There´s no better status than that of a victim to curb any kind of criticism a priori, a reliable method to silence any opposition by default, ´cause contradicting a "victim" is nasty, right? It´s funny that a self proclaimed outsider knows better than myself whether I´m oppressed or not, don´t you think? Absurd theater.




Don´t know what you´re up to, what you´re trying to prove here, especially coming from someone who allegedly has no more connections to zoophilia than a friend who allegedly has died. And no, sex doesn´t equal love, but it is an essential difference to be without any real experience since exactly that, the sex part , is what is forbidden. Arrogance , much? 




"I understand the part, but do not agree with it"...well, it isn´t necessary that you agree to it, what omatters is that reality agrees with it.... [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" /> 

[WinterGreenWolf]

5 hours ago, covfefelake said:




I know...  and I know Rannoch was a zoophile, BTW.  But what I was saying is I guess conceptually i have no issue with straight bestiality either as long as it is consensual.  That doesn't make sense to ostracize one while accepting another, logically speaking.

Hey, fair play and good point really. With animals I do get a bit emotional and passionate on the subject. I've seen some shitty people do some very shitty things to creatures we share our homes and world with. Not to mention even members of my own family that just basically see them as dumb food machines.




It's just so disappointing. I'd give anything to have some more time with my shepherd, but I can't dwell on the past for matters like that. It's just.. well, his personality was what actually make me like animals and dogs in  general: it was him who showed and sort of 'validated' my attraction too.




I'm harsh on outright Bestiality too simply because of places like BeastForum. People going on and saying shit like 'Yeah, pound that bitch pussy good!' when she's clearly yelping in pain or desperately wriggling to try and get away. Seem that in a few videos. Or the male dogs who growl, whimper and go completely submissive when anally penetrated... They just keep right on'a' fuckin'! Or the story 30-30 told me several posts up in this thread.. Heartbreaking all across the board..




So my hostility wasn't really directed your way entirely, and I'm glad to know you really can see things our way: not a lot of outsiders do.




Oh, and to 30-30, I'm going to be a bit sharp in the tongue here...




We may have some common ground discovered and similar feelings about our animals.. But I do have to say your views are definitely twisted. Some of reality lines up with you whereas it feels like some of it you make up to be a pessimist. I have red and even re-red some of your posts a time or two.




Which, brings me to another tough pill to swallow with you, I get the feeling because you are an 'older' zoo, an 'OG', you can lecture people on society, reality and Zoophilia as a whole.




I may not be as old as you, nor have been through as rough of times, but we are all different, we all see things differently. I'm just as stubborn as you, more so most likely. I also do have experience with the struggles and the downsides of my attraction and life choices, so I don't really appreciate being 'sat down' like you attempted in Silverwolf's thread to tell me 'how reversal of ineffective laws was stupid', or that 'we need regulations and to be watched'. I'm 31, but I'm no moron. I also don't have the answers to all the questions either.




One more thing: I know it happens, but why the hell are you constantly assuming a 'fake death' and 'alt accounts' and shit ? I know you and Rannoch had a bit of a beef but shouldn't you just leave a sleeping dog lie after a while? That's a top-tier grade A asshole move to come on and pull that crap (I know, sounds like moral posturing...), this forum isn't the place for that kind of thing anyways IMHO. Every time you bring up the 'alt accounts of Rannoch' or 'sounds like a fake death to me' (yes, I'm paraphrasing a good deal here..) I lose a little more of the shakey respect I've started to gain for you.




You have rational points, and even information I was not privy to: and for that I thank you for sharing. But again isn't there a time and  place to let something go and -not- be an asshole? Like I said, let a sleeping dog lie, we're in this together by the way. Like it or not.




 

[covfefelake]

4 hours ago, 30-30 said:




Are you , by any chance, one of those SJWs who see oppression everywhere?

If that's how you describe liberal minded individuals, I probably fit the bill.  Tells more about you than me though.  Seems you fit in with a certain camp, as do I.  I don't see opression everywhere though...  actually it's rather new to me being a privileged white male.  But I certainly see it here.  Actually this is the strongest oppression I have seen in my lifetime, which should say something, but then again, millennial and all, so I missed a bit.  Queue your old timer rage I suppose...




 

4 hours ago, 30-30 said:




what omatters is that reality agrees with it....

Morality is not something reality can take a position on, sorry.  Philosophy 101 here.

4 hours ago, 30-30 said:




But that´s a core problem when this "aspie" tries to weigh in on a topic that demands actual insight into other people´s thoughtpatterns to be successful.

You don't really know Rannoch enough to make a statement like that.  Heck, I doubt you even know Aspergers.  It's not debilitating in that way.  He was quite good at understanding practicalities of the world.  He was even an excellent public speaker.  He had social skills, he just elected not to use them 90% of the time.  He was what I'd describe as "severely demotivated" and I think honestly, it had more to do with his folks than his genes.  This is a type of "Aspie" by the way.  Before they merged Autism and Aspergers, it would've been called "high functioning Aspergers"




I did some college level psych, so this isn't completely foreign to me.

[covfefelake]

1 hour ago, WinterGreenWolf said:




But again isn't there a time and  place to let something go

Actually, this applies more to me than 30-30, I think.




It hits home.




...




What the fuck am I doing here.

[30-30]

WGW, on the Rannoch issue I can only say that debating with covfefelake feels exactly like debating with Rannoch himself, the exact same points made, sometimes even the wording R. usually used is matching perfectly. I don´t believe in coincidences, especially not in this case. And I have a bloody hard time to digest the backstory covfefelake is presenting to us here...an outsider whose only connection to zoophilia and this forum is his deceased friend, sorry but in all of my years in this, I haven´t run into such a case, not even remotely. I would have found it plausible if C. came in here, shared a bit of info on R. , maybe try to talk about his deceased friend to overcome the sorrow, and then quit this forum. I can hardly believe an outsider to turn so effortlessly into one of those who we´re already filled up to the brim with in such a short time he´s confronted with "animal fuckery". Sorry, but my horsey senses are heavily tingling here...and I doubt this will ever go away. It´s just highly implausible for me, thus my "assholery"....oh, and I don´t like being lied to, being played with, too. One proposal from my side : since everyone in here should have noticed my doubts by now, I´ll completely cease with my Rannoch comparisons. But covfefe, don´t interpret this as a victory, I still have that strange feel about the eerie similarities in debating style, in the "arguments" brought forward etc.  




One comment on my "condescending" image I may give. You have to walk a few miles in my shoes to understand why I´m like this. Since I´ve entered the zoo community back in the beginning of the nineties, I ran into that very same mindset that now has become our "official" dogma. I´ve seen a once relatively relaxed community mutating under those who didn´t hesitate to spew anger towards society, all those mouthpieces trying to turn our community into a quasi-sect. I personally ran into specimens of those sectarian branch among us that sported so many outright ludicrous and retarded demands towards society, and when I contradicted them, I only experienced the very same attitude those sycophants are accusing everyone else of. Intolerant towards anyone with a different opinion, incapable to find compromises, self entitled, and for the worst, completely hard hearted when it comes to the rights of animals. This tendency grew and grew and the newest example of this is covfefe´s attempt as a friggin´ outsider to oppress me by insisting that I am oppressed as a zoo and just too stupid or deluded to get it. Absurd, isn´t it? My replies may look harsh and cold, but that´s what happens with someone who is in all of this way too long and had way too many quite illuminating encounters with members of our community, on- and offline. From my operational perspective, I always wonder "cui bono?", who´s benefitting from demonising society into an omnipotent, yet ultimately hostile entity. I always wonder about that screeching about "...but the suicides among zoos" and yet, exactly those same individuals who spout these accusations in their sub text ("Society makes zoophiles kill themselves!") are for me the biggest factor in this. If you´re young and easily influencable, what will be more detrimental to you if not that constant bantering about how we´re all soo "persecuted" , as if behind every zoo´s door, the squads are already lining up to crash in. I always thought it would be way more beneficial if we wouldn´t do that , but try to build up these influencable zoos to become steady, reliable and responsible ambassadors of our orientation instead of deliberately making them into angstridden paranoiacs and feeling good by doing this ´cause "free zoophilia!". I just don´t know, maybe I´m just too disappointed with this scene, this community, ´cause it always seem to be drawn towards the wrong decisions like moths to the flame. I´m still heavily shattered by how little respect the majority of our community has towards themselves, their alleged orientation and society in general. Not to mention the animals. I´m still puzzled at the basic fact that everyone tries to search for a way out of this "oppression", but when it is presented to them, they dismiss it solely because it contradicts their accepted narrative of being a victim. I know all of the demands this fraction is making are ridiculous at best and will never ever become true in exactly the same sense they are hoping for. I know how illusionary all of these demands are and I know why society will never accept "free zoophilia" , mainly because it would be like giving the keys to the candyshop to a bunch of kindergarteners that are not yet able to calculate the dire consequences of their lack of self control. I´ve had enough incidents where I was standing in front of a horse owner whose horse has been under attack from a fencehopper, I´ve seen the utter shock these owners had to endure, I´ve seen the tears, I´ve seen the big impact such incidents can make on them, the trauma inflicted. I´ve seen enough to come to the conclusion that our community still has a damn long way to go from the ego bubble towards a responsible community that doesn´t mistake themselves for the entire world. That seeks a balanced approach rather than shouting stupid slogans. As one who usually plays the Cassandra in our community and gets lots of flack for being such a "fun killer", I´ve grown hard hearted, I frankly admit that. But that´s what naturally happens if people choose a failing ideology over operational approaches, if you´re getting stomped on not for telling lies, but for violating their precious illusions. It sucks power out of you in the long run, it keeps you from remaining friendly and empathic after a while. People are more eager to listen to mouthpieces that present you with easy answers for complicated matters instead of advice that may work, but is dropping the ball in your half of the pitch. Comfyness, reluctance to changes in yourself, stubbornness although their "religion" has been disproven by reality not one, not two, but a multitude of times....you basically despair somewhere along the process. Like debating with flat earthers or folks insisting that "Merkel has invited the terrorists to Europe", it´s just so goddamn hard to cope with this insanity. I already knew that proverb of "It´s easier to con people than to make them aware they´ve been conned" , but I started throwing my perspective in nonetheless. I´ve done this for more than 27 years now and my patience is running thin lately. I´m just too aware of why we´re not getting anything done, I can see it quite clearly and it legitimately hurts to watch something I consider "my community" to happily shoot themselves in the foot over and over again, like a twisted version of "Groundhog day". That´s what made me the way I am now. I really don´t want to be that way, I´d prefer real communication instead, but you have to work with what is there, not what you wish would be there. That´s also one of the reasons why I promised myself I will quit all that "online zoo community" thing when I´m turning 50...this will be the case in 2022 and I´m actually looking forward to it. Those who haven´t got it until then will not get it even if I was around our forums ´til the sun destroys itself. It´s just so bothersome and energy comsuming to just cope with all the setbacks I experienced over the years. The "zoos" who turned out to be disgusting specimens of bestialists, the ones whose real intent came out after a few pm´s , the outright liars, the mentally challenged , the whole conglomerate of people who really shouldn´t be in here in the first place and spout their toxic ideas. As if we zoos didn´t already have enough problems. That´s why I am this way. I´m sorry if I come across as a condescending prick, but this community made me what I am. I´m not trying to shift the blame here, I know I´m to blame for this , too. So, no excuse for my behaviour, just an explanation I hope you can understand.

[covfefelake]

8 minutes ago, 30-30 said:




WGW, on the Rannoch issue I can only say that debating with covfefelake feels exactly like debating with Rannoch himself, the exact same points made, sometimes even the wording R. usually used is matching perfectly. I don´t believe in coincidences, especially not in this case

We went to the same exact schools growing up.  Like literally.  Even the same college.  Only difference is he dropped out and became a potato, I graduated.




 




...




 




I don't need to prove anything to you.  I already did that elsewhere anyhow.  You are obviously a provable asshole.  Have fun with yourself and the idea that because you never saw it, it can not be true.  I hope it gets you far in life.