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18 hours ago, 30-30 said:
they still believe in this and that it´ll bring "free zoophilia" if only "we" bump our head onto the massive concrete wall of "You fuck animals? And I am supposed to tolerate this? Hell NO!!" for long enough.
The crazy thing is too: that they don't seem to get, and that no one seems to get. There is no law against *zoophilia* in and of itself, it's merely the attraction. You don't have to have sexual contact with an animal to -be- a zoophile, period. As I've said before and I'll probably continue to disagree with you on that point from what I've seen of your other posts. That is, if I remember your statement of 'experience' defining a true zoo. I hope I'm not misinterpreting that in any way.
It's *bestiality* that is not legal in most of the U.S.: the actual -act- of sexually contacting an animal (even though Dog breeders, ranchers, and farmers use the guise of 'AI' and 'Animal husbandry'), it's still fucking sexual contact with an animal no matter what way you slice the pie, it's partly people's deluded sense of morals that make them think X is O.K., but Y is BAD BAD BAD. It also does revert to one of your earlier points too: we've given ourselves our own bad image as well.
So, taking that in to account, German groups like 'Zeta Weren' (SP?), and the 'Tumblr fighters' are complete morons. Zoos aren't 'missing rights', there's no civil right to be had especially since animals don't have, nor understand human rights.
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18 hours ago, 30-30 said:
"there´s only two things that are infinite, space and human stupidity...and I´m not really sure about space."
I have repeated this *exact* quote -so- many times, it's not funny. It seems especially true with the 'Zoo Warriors' like Aluzky, or the 'Beast advocate' trash fires like Whitney Wisconsin. Every time in the past I've seen a video from one of these Grade A Morons, or heard of them mentioned I cringed, hard.
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18 hours ago, 30-30 said:
Don´t mind our first "hard contact", WGW...I´m German and we Germans aren´t said to be blunt and open instead of being polite for nothing. I´d rather have a million people telling me that I´m an asshole for them right into my face than all this false politeness that´s hiding true feelings behind social conventions. I can distribute punches, so I should be capable to receive some punches, right? [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" /> So, nevermind, you don´t owe me an apology or an explanation.
Heh, makes me wonder if I'm part German? [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/biggrin.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=":D" width="20" /> I don't take shit from anyone, am open and honest if asked a question (to the best of my ability of course...) and I really could give two shits less what someone thinks of me in general. Strangely this didn't use to be the case. I used to seek social acceptance and even in my earliest days I sadly undertook the role of a 'Zoo Rights Fighter' after the hands incident, the young and dumb 'change the world by my own hand' sort of mentality. As a few seem to do though, I found myself: grew up, started thinking logically and went in to the shadows about 'Being Zoo' for a good many years: sat back and watched the shit show, let things cool off etc..
Not to mention, the most important lesson one should learn: *YOU* are in control of your own actions, choices and situations, it's not worth it to bend out of shape and go nuts over social pressures, especially when those social pressures can be -avoided- a lot of the time by not stepping in the proverbial shit pile. If you do something stupid, it's your situation and your problem. If your neighbor does something stupid (but isn't harming anyone, or anything else) it is not your problem, period. Trust me on this one, that is the biggest stress relief known: sometimes you just gotta give society the big middle finger and lay low.
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18 hours ago, 30-30 said:
"I hope others can learn to treat us with more kindness"...I share this hope , but I´m afraid that won´t happen until we ourselves learn to treat us and our orientation with respect first. And regarding Rannoch, I can only say that he may have faced a different life if he´d grown up in Europe. As far as I know, all his problems originated in how the US generally treats "deviants" of our kind. My cow loving zoo friend from North Germany did indeed tell his psychotherapist about his love for cows and pigs without any perils of going to jail and his mother does know about her son´s special orientation as well. I met her a couple of times when she was visiting him and she doesn´t seem to make much of a drama out of it, she´s pretty supportive. In the US, no one bats an eye when a bank robber gets shot in the head by police live on TV in the afternoon, when lots of kiddies watch TV, but when Janet Jackson´s nipple is exposed, it´s a nationwide crisis. In Europe, not even the fanatically religious are frightened of a nipple, but any form of violence is frowned upon. I guess that illustrates the divergence in general attitude between the US and Europe better than anything else. Rannoch´s case doesn´t display a general problem, but a very US specific problem IMHO, one that resonates into all sectors of US society, psychologists, therapeuts, parents, laws etc. pp. You won´t find "sex offender lists" here in Europe...we Europeans think it´s medieval.
I can tell you, you are for sure right about the divergent nature of the two 'countries' (best way I can think to word it). In American Society, when the popular do, the rest follow (very much the 'sheeple' mentality). Also if 'leader' says something is bad, or risky, it goes down the ladder and ends up as 'REALLY, REALLY BAD'.. In Ken's case with his stallion.. ugh 'lover', Darwinism tool hold and his stupidity was punished (by death...), to the rest of society,: it was a 'PLEASE, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!' moment. In the same breath, we do just what you describe too. Televise executions and murders (one in the same, in my eyes...) on -live- T.V. during the day! Yet a nipple slip or 'Hey mom, the dog, kinda humped me last night.. I kinda liked it...' is the world's worst Moral Apocalypse to ever occur, ever!
It sounds kind of harsh, but I -do- believe in the 'Darwinism Theory': the strong survive and the weak die off. There's sometimes it's best to intervene but I really think society would be better as a whole, especially in the states if people's stupidity was allowed to be punished by their actions (like what happened to Hands). Now, we have so many damn laws and regulations to protect idiots it's hard to tell if someone really learns anything in day to day life anymore.
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9 hours ago, heavyhorse said:
don't know anyone who takes more words to say something, but your point(s) are 100% spot-on.
Yeah see that's the thing, he's right about this 100%. I mean hell if I were into humans and had a human partner: I wouldn't push our sex lives or sexual activity on every single person I met. But it seems all too common in our community. I think for the reasons 30 stated too.
I mean hell, I wish I could be a -little- more open with my true feelings towards animals and whatnot, but it's not a hill I'm dying on: especially since it risks me -not- being able to find another mate, settle and start a life with him.
Being a blabbermouth, going all 'ZOO PRIDE', telling the public how good doggie dong feels are all ways of fucking yourself over. Plus as 30-30 mentioned too: the young zoos, the discovering and the new are going to feel repressed and depressed by a law that shouldn't even effect them in the first place.
WGW, I frankly admit that my stance on the inexperienced among us looks a lot like that of an arrogant asshole. But let me explain how I came to my perspective. First of all, many surveys suggest that our "zoo community" consists of only a meager 20 - 25 % of active and experienced people. The remaining up to 80 % of inexperienced "zoos" largely consists of fantasisers and roleplayers, people whose attraction and desire for animals is much like that of a teenage school girl that "falls in love" with her teacher. They´re attracted to it not DESPITE it being unrealistic and very unlikely, they´re attracted BECAUSE it almost certainly will never happen in real life and thus gives a perfect screen of projection. It´s totally safe because it only takes place in their heads and they have absolute control about it. It´s attractive because it will never be true.
Besides that, these fantasisers and roleplayers are more interested in the social aspects of the "zoo community" than in actual animal contacts. For them, the zoo community is more like a fandom, with lots of tangents to the Furry community. A hiding place for people with social deficits, an echo chamber and a filter bubble that doesn´t judge them regardless of how much they´d need professional help or how batshit crazy they behave.
Now you could say than all of this doesn´t justify turning them down as members of the zoo community, but what really makes my blood boil is that these types really think there is no difference between them and actually experienced zoos. They join the "howling at the moon" (complaining about the ´unjust´ society) although they have literally nothing to fear and nothing to lose according to the simple fact you stated, the fact that it´s not "zoophilia" that is illegal, but having real sex with real animals. I don´t know how others feel about those fake wolves trying to howl with the real ones, but I as an active zoophile feel genuinely mocked by this. For them, it´s just part of their "game", for me and other active zoos it´s goddamn real threat. And not only that, these roleplayers also have the audacity to try and make themselves into spokespersons for zoophilia, also as part of their "game". They spout a lot of bullshit , they don´t even get how they trample on real zoos´ feelings with this. I even gave this type of "zoos" a new name, I call them Virtual Only, 1000% Total Zoos"...V.O.T.Z. ...by the way "Votz" (or Fotze) is the German word for "cunt"... [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" />
Please don´t get me wrong, I´m the very first to support and help a newbie zoo achieving his/her dream and will pour lots of advice over their heads when they are interested in horses. But those who are real in their interest are very rare, usually they turn out to be fantasisers that I judge according to the proverb "fake zoos find excuses, real ones find ways". Not too long ago, we had a textbook example of such a fantasiser in the zoo subreddit and even in zoowg. A lot of people gave this guy all kinds of good advice on how to meet a horse, but for every advice, he found an excuse. When he first came to the subreddit, I was the first to hint at the various possibilities of hippotherapy and other ways to get in contact with horses, yet he always found a cheap excuse why he can´t do it because of this and that. It´s quite unnerving for me if my precious time is wasted with so much direspect, time I could have spent with my mare instead of wasting it on a person that wants attention , not help. What also makes my gear grind is when one of those fantasisers starts telling totally ridiculous and clearly made up stuff and tries to sell it to others as real. I remember a certain "Rainbow ponee" trying to tell me how he did a mare missionary style. If you , as I am, are familiar with horses, you know that the only occurrences of a horse laying flat on its back for long enough to have coitus to climax with it is when the horse lays on a vet´s operation table and is under the influence of heavy anaesthetics, you literally can smell the bullshit through the screen.
Those two are just two examples, I could provide an endless stream of them. I´ve seen the first few fantasisers when they sporadically appeared in our forums decades ago, I´ve seen them growing in numbers throughout the years and, I´ve seen them distorting and mutating our community into what it is today. Mainly a place where the social media aspect counts way more than that what we zoos claim to love above anything else, the animals. It all turned into a huge hug box for the impostors and fantasisers and into a playground for drama queens and attention whores, seldom about animals, most often about humans. That´s what I blame them for, the hijacking of what was supposed to be a refuge for zoos, a source of aid, support and advice. They tore it apart and turned it into the exact opposite, a playground of their vanity and they even drove out a significant number of real zoos that became incredibly fed up with being presented totally implausible bullshit, drama and all the other crap . They even are partially responsible for our community turning into a dogmatic echo chamber that discourages any dissident to speak up. Not many others have the nerve I have; the nerve to continue trying to bring our community with their feet back onto the ground of reality despite of all the hissy fits, the accusations of being an intolerant dick etc.
They are so dominant now, only a few dare to speak out against this toxicity among us. Fantasy is not reality. Having sex with an animal for the first time IS an initiation rite, you only really know if you went through it. If somebody feels disrespected by me brushing all the inexperienced with the largest brush in my repertoire, I´m sorry for that. But when you run into people of the fantasiser type for long enough, you become angry. And if there is only a tiny fraction of inexperienced that don´t give the immediate notion that their "zoophilia" is NOT just "exploring dark fantasies" or "playing a role online to distract yourselves from a dull and boring life of a ´normie´ but a genuine orientation, I hope my anger is understandable. If I feel you have a genuine and honest interest in finding a quadruped partner, are not a nutjob trying to find equally twisted "friends" in our community and are not in this for your entertainment, I will do everything I can to help. I even borrowed money to some of my real life zoo friends so they could buy their animal partner. The only thing I demand of inexperienced is their honesty; we zoos usually cannot be honest outside our forums, we usually have to lie for our own security and that of our animals. I want a place where I can tell the truth and I´m surely not alone with that. I don´t want lies in our forums, I don´t want roleplaying. I want honest discussions about all that needs to be discussed. I want to discuss political issues regarding zoophilia, real safety measurement advice for zoos, etc..... I want the truth, not infantile roleplaying to entertain anyone. And I don´t want total newbies trying to teach people like me, people with years, if not decades of experience. I want our community to act as adults, not infantiles. Real awareness, not fantasy, drama and bullshit.
Sorry for typing a whole novel again, and a rather incoherent one I guess. ATM, I´m sleepless because I smoked a bit too much of that new Gorilla Glue strain I bought in the summer, so pardon my lenghty ramblings. [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" /> My head´s pretty much just a ferris wheel right now...
Oh, and those "romantic zoos", the ones who claim to have sexual feelings towards animals, but would never act on them...well, can someone please explain what exactly it si that differs from a normal animal lover? And could we please leave out identity politics when trying to explain? [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" /> Fantasy is not reality. Hope you can make some sense of this, WGW... I woudln´t blame you if you can´t...atm I find it hard to make sense of what I´ve written myself... [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" />
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2 hours ago, 30-30 said:
WGW, I frankly admit that my stance on the inexperienced among us looks a lot like that of an arrogant asshole. But let me explain how I came to my perspective. First of all, many surveys suggest that our "zoo community" consists of only a meager 20 - 25 % of active and experienced people. The remaining up to 80 % of inexperienced "zoos" largely consists of fantasisers and roleplayers, people whose attraction and desire for animals is much like that of a teenage school girl that "falls in love" with her teacher. They´re attracted to it not DESPITE it being unrealistic and very unlikely, they´re attracted BECAUSE it almost certainly will never happen in real life and thus gives a perfect screen of projection. It´s totally safe because it only takes place in their heads and they have absolute control about it. It´s attractive because it will never be true.
Fair enough perspective on you side, I can see your point. That being said: when I mention 'Zoophile', especially in the other thread I mean thhe accepted definition overall, including what's in the DSM V-TR. Meaning that it's 'a physical, emotional, or sexual attraction to an animal' and not the act itself. People by the way can even fake being a Pedophile, doesn't mean they really are one: and in most caases it takes quite the psychological evaluation to determine someone's attraction. I personally would rather a few 'maybes' and a better overall view, perspective and understanding of who and what we are than another confirmed stereotype and the whole 'He's a zoophile, so he fucks animals?' bullshit I've heard too many times to count.
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2 hours ago, 30-30 said:
Besides that, these fantasisers and roleplayers are more interested in the social aspects of the "zoo community" than in actual animal contacts. For them, the zoo community is more like a fandom, with lots of tangents to the Furry community. A hiding place for people with social deficits, an echo chamber and a filter bubble that doesn´t judge them regardless of how much they´d need professional help or how batshit crazy they behave.
Again, true to an extend and the Furry Fandom has become a political hotbet, as well as a moral posturing shitshow in the last couple years. I've been in the furry fandom the same amount of time I realized I was a Zoo. I actually tried to use it as a 'diversion' from my Zoo tendencies when I was going through the acceptance struggle and thought I was a monster. Of course that phase passed and I -did- accept and actually appreciate who I am. The real reason I decided to kill ties to Furries is that they weren't really judgemental of -that- aspect in all cases, the fandom simply isn't about expression and self-discovery anymore: it's about who you're friends with and what political stance you take.
I still put forth, that you can be attracted and even sexually aroused by an animal, and not have had contact with one. Making you a Zoo by psychological definition. The 'fakers' are a problem but also some folks like Resident Hyena here, who's attracted to Avians, you can't really outright fuck a bird now can you? Not without damage (Yes, I -know- there's things like Mutual Masturbation and whatnot, but simple sex is kind of out...). Some folks' 'Animal Passion' could either cause damage to the animal or simply be unobtainable through normal means and without risk.
I'm not going to argue with you though as I can see your viewpoint and you are entitled to it. Again, a few more 'points on the board' we seem to share, yet in maybe a different light.
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2 hours ago, 30-30 said:
Now you could say than all of this doesn´t justify turning them down as members of the zoo community, but what really makes my blood boil is that these types really think there is no difference between them and actually experienced zoos. They join the "howling at the moon" (complaining about the ´unjust´ society) although they have literally nothing to fear and nothing to lose according to the simple fact you stated, the fact that it´s not "zoophilia" that is illegal, but having real sex with real animals.
See that's the thing, -we- (you and I, Silverwolf, HeavyHorse, etc..) do know the real risks, and how to avoid most of them. 90+% of these people not only don't know the risks but put themselves in stupid situations regardless (note my points on the 'outdoor GSD 'love''). The idiots will bark at the moon screaming injustice no matter what you tell them or what they've actually done. It sort of goes back still to a large mass of Society, and our own internal community not knowing what a Zoophile actually is.
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2 hours ago, 30-30 said:
I don´t know how others feel about those fake wolves trying to howl with the real ones, but I as an active zoophile feel genuinely mocked by this. For them, it´s just part of their "game", for me and other active zoos it´s goddamn real threat. And not only that, these roleplayers also have the audacity to try and make themselves into spokespersons for zoophilia, also as part of their "game". They spout a lot of bullshit , they don´t even get how they trample on real zoos´ feelings with this. I even gave this type of "zoos" a new name, I call them Virtual Only, 1000% Total Zoos"...V.O.T.Z. ...by the way "Votz" (or Fotze) is the German word for "cunt"... [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" />
I feel the same way man, as a formerly active zoo who hopes to find true love again someday: I do feel the same, both from the 'Furries' and 'VOTZs' as you call them, as well as society. It really does feel like sometimes no one understands, wants to understand or ask questions. Well you know 'cause there's no way a dog can enjoy sex' and 'that mare is just confused!'.. Ugh, just annoying to tne Nth degree. I can also confirm it does feel like a little slap to the face, especially since they push shit like 'their right to express', 'we're not monsters, I haven't even touched an animal!': so, what of us who have? Are we monsters then? Does our lovers returning time and time again for our company and relief signify a horrible creature who's only objective is to 'get off'.
Now, a little story.. As a Male canine lover (a 'Gay Zoo' if you will) my first time -fucking hurt- man.. He jabbed and went all in in one go! Not to mention the stretch (never knotted: but my lover was a thick boy..). I stayed in position and endured for a good while before slipping him out: why? It felt good to him! I'd say that with great certainty too as he returned for me two more times after. A clear case where I put my own discomfort aside for his happiness and pleasure (that, along with the physical stimulation, moreso the emotional though: was one of the most incredible experiences of my life). Bot a V.O.T.Z (I like that one by the way...) or a simple beastie wouldn't understand that.
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2 hours ago, 30-30 said:
Please don´t get me wrong, I´m the very first to support and help a newbie zoo achieving his/her dream and will pour lots of advice over their heads when they are interested in horses. But those who are real in their interest are very rare, usually they turn out to be fantasisers that I judge according to the proverb "fake zoos find excuses, real ones find ways". Not too long ago, we had a textbook example of such a fantasiser in the zoo subreddit and even in zoowg. A lot of people gave this guy all kinds of good advice on how to meet a horse, but for every advice, he found an excuse. When he first came to the subreddit, I was the first to hint at the various possibilities of hippotherapy and other ways to get in contact with horses, yet he always found a cheap excuse why he can´t do it because of this and that. It´s quite unnerving for me if my precious time is wasted with so much direspect, time I could have spent with my mare instead of wasting it on a person that wants attention , not help. What also makes my gear grind is when one of those fantasisers starts telling totally ridiculous and clearly made up stuff and tries to sell it to others as real. I remember a certain "Rainbow ponee" trying to tell me how he did a mare missionary style. If you , as I am, are familiar with horses, you know that the only occurrences of a horse laying flat on its back for long enough to have coitus to climax with it is when the horse lays on a vet´s operation table and is under the influence of heavy anaesthetics, you literally can smell the bullshit through the screen.
Oh absolutely, I try to do the same with dogs. I'm not as 'experienced' with them as some here but I have played with a couple Males in the past. So I try to give my inputs and how things went down, along with the usual don't get caught, not with others' animals etc.. I have done oral and Anal with canines (oral receiving and giving, anal receiving..) so I can offer -some- tips on the subject, also the animal I've been around the most. I do like Equines, but they're just not as 'high up' for me and I've never been intimate with one.
Mm, not to open a rotten can of worms: but I'm assuming that this 'person' here was Saturnine? I've seen a lot of his posts, I can only agree....
Also, I knew about horses laying flat-back, hell with pretty much any Equine they sleep standing correct? So 'doggy' is pretty much the only position (it's really the only position most canines are comfortable in too: though I've heard that Silverwolf had a couple lovers who enjoyed other positions...).
I won't quote your last paragraph or so because honestly I agree with it pretty much 100%. As I've said too I want a place to be honest, true to myself and to be able to have conversations like this. I really hope I don't give the impression of a 'faker' but I assure I am not. I really miss physical intimacy and I want to experience it again. I think I will, but it will take time. My eyes are fucking shot to being out on my own is -very- difficult / near impossible. I also agree about the hug-boxing, fantasy-pushing, outright lying crowd who want 'twisted friends' and a fetish community. That shit needs to stop and now.
It's like I told my RL friend Jake 'I saw Buck (my passed GSD Lover) like you see your wife, he was my significant other, my better half: my shoulder when my emotions were getting the best of me. He could always make me laugh, make me feel better and warm inside, and could give me pleasure both emotionally and physically like nothing else in this world. I can still see his face when I close my eyes.' That statement really opened his eyes, he was shocked but he could understand: having owned dogs himself and owning a couple now. His response being something along the lines of 'I can really see that, I mean they clearly have emotions themselves!'.
Also, hey ramble on man. It made sense to me and I'm a shit wordsmith: you know, the kind that pounds nails with a screwdriver...? [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/biggrin.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=":D" width="20" /> Anyways, yeah it's nice to get a little more common ground among us. Please, do feel free to ramble on to me at any time.
Wow, back to normal again after the Gorrilla Glue overdose...gosh, I solemnly swear I won´t smoke more than two spliffs with that stuff again. [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" />
I do not accept the DRM´s definition of zoophilia and am aware of how the z-word found its way into the mainstream and science. When scientists researched our community, they were exposed to a neverending stream of "zoophiles" aggressively promoting the z-word regardless of their actual fantasies, actions and beliefs. My fault: I was participating in the IRC chats like Lintilla and Sleepy´s back in the 90´s , when the z-word was coined intentionally to try and give society something to separate the folks who do it solely for their own sexual gratification without any concerns for the animal involved from the ones among us who see more in zoophilia and in their animals than just living dildos and walking fleshlights. The DRM definition fails in pretty much every aspect, it actually considers all the nuances of bestiality and zoophilia as completely equal. And exactly that was what the introduction of the z-word wanted to avoid originally. The way science, Joe Average and even our own community is using the z-word now is the exact opposite of what it was supposed to mean, to express. It was meant to be a descriptor of qualitative difference, an expression of deeply felt love for an animal, but now it has been deteriorated into only a little more but a synonym for bestiality and/or the artifical word "zoosexuality". Zoophilia as a word has Greek origins, it consists of two Greek words, namely " zo-on" (pronounced almost like the English "so on") what means (domesticated) animal (a wild animal would be called "to therion") and the Greek word for FRIENDSHIP , hae philia. The z-word holds even more rather hidden context, zo-on is singular and thus hints at the intention of monogamy with an animal; if "polyamory" had been intended to be included, we all would call us "zoaphiles" now as the plural of zo-on is zoa. The word has been corrupted in its entirety, was used mindlessly by practically everyone in our community without knowing a single bit what it actually stood for, was then passed into the scientific realm and has finally found its way as a synonym for bestiality, etched down in the DRM as if that´s anywhere near the original meaning. For me, zoophilia still demands that you tick all the boxes, it´s not a matter of ticking just one box of the DRM´s definition, you have to tick ´em all.
About the Furry fandom: Well, I could start an epic rant here, about how I despise that fandom for various reasons, but having just recently discovered the case of "Kero the Wolf" and "SnakeThing", watching the horrid shitfest about zoosadism, fucking a PUPPY with a fricking baseball bat, killing a puppy and fucking its severed head, I guess I´ll totally curb myself of any commentary I might regret and that inevitably lead to me being banned from here for using strong language ...VERY strong language. Just one thing: the eerie similarities and parallels to our own community are quite unnerving to watch. If anyone wants to delve into the Kero case, be warned...you will AB-SO-FUCKIN-LUTELY NOT like what will be presented to you. Very disturbing shit. And proven with pictures and chat logs.
I do agree partially on your statement about "psychological" zoos, those who have (or think they have) the attraction, but no experience yet. But from my own experience, I´m still convinced that it takes a bit more than just the attraction. When I remember how deciding for my future my first time with a mare has been, how completely changed I came out of this experience and how I felt with every fibre in my body that I had crossed an invisible line and would never ever be able to undo that life changing experience, I have hard times to see those few with a possibly genuine attraction , but no experience as full equals. This is not to belittle those folks, it´s just that they haven´t made what I call "the leap of faith", that delicate moment when it all turns real, when it´s not an intellectual exercise anymore, but tangible, smellable reality. I do see the first experience with an animal as an initiation that will have definite effects on your life...someone who hasn´t gone through this, who hasn´t "pushed his chips into the pot in an all-in move" cannot know what it is like.
On "ornithophiles" like RH: yes, I somehow do agree to the points you made, but I´d rather have him in here , someone who knows that it´s mostly a head thing and respects the bodily limitations making more than manual stimulation impossible, than folks of the "hurrah, animal fucking!" type. And if you read my small conversation with RH, you see that I´m not the intolerant bellend many people like to see me as. I can show understanding and empathy even for those I´ve denied complete equality due to the lack of actual experience. RH even reacted calmly and laid back to my scepticism. That´s something I can work with, even when there´s a huge difference in defining zoophilia. I want debate, specticism applied even to our own community to avoid the echo chamber effect and complete disconnection with the outside...which, in the end, we´re all doomed to live in. There´s so much in our community to be subject of honest and open debate, not that hug box mentality, that highschoolesque clique nature of our community. We as a community need to grow up, find our place in life and sort out compromises with society to get any form of change...without that "my way or the highway" bogus illusions. There´s a lot to be learned from all kinds of sources, from ourselves, from the beasties that aren´t as much emotionally invested in animals as we zoos are, from society in general and even from our "opponents" , the anti zoos. We need to break up all the encrustations our community suffers so much under, the quasi crystallised dogma of "free, unlimited zoophilia or you´re a nazi!!" that would shatter it.
About the actives aware of the actual risk involved in zoophilia: yeah, that´s my point. The closer you are to a perceived risk, the more clearly and rationa you can evaluate the actual level of threat you´re under. If that would only get in the heads of all those who are doing their "autistic screech" shtick whenever they feel "oppressed by society" although they´re absolutely not. But I guess that "mutual bemoaning of being oooHHH-pressed" is what truly glues many of our community together, not sharing a relatively rare and rather unexplored sexual orientation, huh ? [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" /> The old "a common enemy" tactics...
The issue of the fantasisers lacking any real understanding and ruining it for all those who come into our forums to get real support and help is one that desperately needs to be solved. If you run into one of those who see zoophilia as their own private playground, not taking things seriously, it can be hard for real zoos when they go through a hard phase in their life. For example, my cow lover zoo friend had his first experiences with a sow from the farm he was working at that time. He truly loved her, and when she had been slaughtered during a weekend he even wasn´t at the farm then, only to discover that she was lying dead at the "corpse disposal place" behind a rye silo, he was shattered. He then made the mistake and tried to find some emotional support in no other place but friggin´ BF, the epicenter of "playground mentality", all he found after telling his story was replies of the "Hey! Do you have pics of the sow´s vag? Can you send them??" kind. Not ONE of those "zoos" cared. And he told me more than once that if he hadn´t replied to me when I contacted him, he´d probably had killed himself long ago in desperate need of someone who really understands his sorrow. I was already a bit hostile against the BF type of "zoo community" , but that incident made me snap. There is one zoo that desperately needed support and emotional help to deal with his pain of losing his first love to the butcher, and no one of that "caring" community offered more that "I´d like to fuck a sow, too...can you tell me how it was" while the poor young man was heartbroken. And in the background, the quiet, almost inaudible "ching! ching!" of money being leeched out of our community continued...That´s NOT what we are, what we should be AT ALL. Our community pretends to be against depression because of zoophilia, but actively invokes depressions with their pretence "solidarity" that seems only to go so far and especially that insane idea that an arachnophobic would feel better if he attends a whole bunch of other folks afraid of spiders, shouting "Hell! We´re oppressed by spiders! Spiders are EVERYWHERE!". It doesn´t even stop there, you´re massively attacked if you try to bring back a bit of reality and reason, trying to calm everyone dome. Much like conspiracy theorists immediately claiming that you´re "part of the conspiracy,too" if you´re not fully and completely agreeing to their bold claims and illusionary threats they see everywhere.
Yeah, I actually meant S. I try to avoid typing his aliases because I fear he´d reappear in here if you type his name once too often... [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" /> And FYI: Equines only doze standing, they actually lay down to doze, too and when they are laying on their sides flat on the ground, that´s when they experience deep sleep phases , with all involved such as REM (rapid eye movement) /dream phases. But they only really sleep for about 2 - 3 hours, the rest mostly is dozing while standing or laying down with their heads up.
I don´t think you´re a faker at all. There´s way too much that is consistent and gives a full picture. Don´t get me started on experiences like you had with your friend Jake, I know exactly what you´re talking about. It only supports the statement I made over and over again over the last decades, it´s not a matter of "logical" reasoning that will achieve tolerance, but displaying our true and deeply felt love for our animal. Even the most ignorant "normie" who cannot understand how you can be "horny for animal ass" can understand real love. In all of the public boarding stables I attended with my mare for 22 years, displaying that deep love was what kept my mare and me from any trouble. People actually can understand...gaining some tolerance for zoophilia is NOT impossible or hopeless.
Finally, yeah, I might come across as a terrible asshole at first glance, but me being so harsh sometimes has its reasons. I´d be the very last one to stick to advanced assholism if our community would only grow up and live up to what it is promising, a refuge rather than a playground. I´m glad we found lots of common grounds with each other despite my rather negative first impression. Nice to talk to you, WGW. [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" />
Fair enough, the more I see spoken on the subject in general the more I'm rejecting the 'definition' of the Big-Z as well. You're also right about it being life-altering: I mean hell I could live in a house full of people, but without a canine to at least go outside and visit I'd feel lonely as hell. Some of that 'playground mentality' and lack of understanding and support is why I was lurking here for like three months. I wasn't sure how the community here would take me: my strong opinions and sharp tongue have been forged much the same way as your own. Though the big difference is I wasn't here in the 90s, so a lot of the 'early drama' was sort of lost on me.
I'm also terribly sorry about your friend, that's just bloody horrid in all forms. I know I'll need the support of this place. Though not sexual I do care for an older GSD whom I love to death: I also know I'm going to be shattered inside and bawling like a baby when he passes on, I do wish he was intact and I could be intimate, but he lacks any interest and I'd be severely violating both the original meaning, my and your own creeds if I were to press the issue. This is why I lay low in general too, most 'Zoo hotspots' are just awful.
Whilst being a pretty high-degree asshole myself, I try to give a decent first impression: in the case of these forums it was more like 'try to paint a picture of myself and my love affair' sort of thing however.
I also didn't know Equines not only had such a crazy-short sleep schedule, but did sleep flat. Have to tell the old folks that who have horses, didn't know they mostly dozed either. Heh, learn something new every day.
After all these years too it's my 'extended love' that's taught me more compassion and understanding with animals too. Especially dogs. People flip when there's a big one, an excited or a scared one. Rule #1 with canines, calm cool and collected wins the day. Yelling, flailing and rabbling at them gets you nowhere but frustraited fast.
I do have to admit seeing some of the images of the Male canines on this forum does make me a bit green with envy.. But only adds to my fantasy when I'm.. in the mood.. shall we say, I'll never stoop to attracting strays or another person's canine for that purpose: it'd be hollow and empty for me anyways as it's the emotional bond and love that I'm after. I can totally relate to the bond with your mare too, I feel the same with the shepherd I'm close with now. He sticks to me like glue and earns his name 'Shadow' very well...
Especially after the Kero fiasco I'm absolutely done with the fandom on a large scale. I used to have aspirations to going to a con', meeting other furs.. No more, I do have a 'fursona' on an old ass text-talker I play for naughty bits now and again, but that's it.
Thoes conventions by the way are basically an ambulance and Police cruiser drive-thru. Someone either high, drunk, obnoxious, destroying property or making threats. Oh and people tend to fuck in massive groups as well: say twenty-five lays a weekend? Ugh, no thanks. That's just the start of the problems I have with the now-decrepit fandom.
*sigh* Okay, after hearing the stories and seeing snippets of the data, I downloaded the Kero logs.. I know it's going to be bad, very bad.. I have to know the extend though.. I already know I'm going to come out of this boiling. Especially since Kota (his dog) just looks like such a sweetheart.. Seeing valid proof of 'him gagging on me'.. Oh boy, what am I getting myself into?
Haha, others must think we're circle-jerking, having some kind of weird Roleplay, or are planning some kind of romantic getaway the way the thread's going now... Kidding, kidding... It is nice though, to see someone who shares a lot of my same sense of rationale on the subject, and not just a bunch of Aluzkys' and WarCanines' roaming around that care nothing of the relation, or outside image of our community as a whole. Sorry, I know that sounded like attacks, it wasn't: just pointing out the obvious.
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On 11/14/2018 at 11:21 PM, WinterGreenWolf said:
I still put forth, that you can be attracted and even sexually aroused by an animal, and not have had contact with one. Making you a Zoo by psychological definition. The 'fakers' are a problem but also some folks like Resident Hyena here, who's attracted to Avians, you can't really outright fuck a bird now can you? Not without damage (Yes, I -know- there's things like Mutual Masturbation and whatnot, but simple sex is kind of out...). Some folks' 'Animal Passion' could either cause damage to the animal or simply be unobtainable through normal means and without risk.
In particular, "The 'fakers' are a problem but also some folks like Resident Hyena here".
Could you maybe clarify or elaborate upon that?
Resident Hyaena ^..^
11-17-2018, 01:42 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-17-2018, 01:47 AM by covfefelake.)
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On 11/13/2018 at 6:44 AM, 30-30 said:
When a law is basically a "paper tiger" and the one targetted by this law needs to genuinely fuck up themselves to feel the repercussions, the law is practically nonexistent.
When you face social venom of this extent, the law will never be a "paper tiger." The risk of an outing developing legal consqequences is real, and the fact is, humans are notoriously noisy about their love lives. If you aren't, then YOU are the exception, not the rule.
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Persecution precedes genocide and thus is an integral part of latter.
Yes oftentimes, but the logical analyst in me must pull out my chart and point out this is Genetic Fallacy. Persecution does not always lead to genocide. You cannot judge a thing based on it's origins.
Either way, I don't think anyone would argue practitioners of bestiality aren't persuecuted in America or Europe. In fact, if people started to think en masse that was the case, I'd expect riots. This in and of itself is indicative of persecution.
"Humans are notoriously noisy about their love lives..." Yes, and in this orientation, people need to gain control over their "urges to tell", it´s as simple as that. Self control. One should think the "crown of creation" should be able to manage that. What is more likely, the whole of society suddenly "seeing the light and deep wisdom of animal fucking", all 8 billion at once? Or is it more likely to learn how the fuck to shut up for every one involved in zoophilia and bestiality? Hm? You honestly seem to think that society should be built around the needs of a few rather than those few trying to adapt to society. That is so infantile and selfish. And given the direction you´re heading to with that kind of arguments, my level of doubt that you´re not what you tell us, but indeed an alternate account of Rannoch who used to go exactly the same direction with his arguments, has just risen to over 9000.
Where have I written that persecution always leads to genocide? I only wrote that persecution is an integral part of genocide, all the other stuff you made up. You also made the same mistake of calling prosecution of crimes "persecution". There´s a subtle difference between that, don´t you think? As I said before, it´s a massive difference between the police REACTING to crimes being reported to them and actual persecution which would not demand some porn vids or other stuff leaked because police is ACTIVELY going after anyone, even if he´s only posting text in a forum like this. Remember: with PRISM , the authorities have every tool it their hands that would make it possible to identify lots and lots of us in our various forums, VPN and TOR or not, doesn´t matter.But to this day, police is only reacting. And don´t forget that we have an OPEN group of bestialists in Germany, the ZETA Verein. Kiok, Burdinski, David Zimmermann, they all are publicly known, with lots of pictures of them out there and even video evidence like interviews. If we´re persecuted, how do you explain that every single publicly known ZETA person still is walking free? My point still is valid: if you don´t fuck up yourselves, the chances you´re gonna run into problems are practically nonexistent. Here in Europe for sure, and overseas it isn´t much different. Well, maybe it is because in the USA you have those Christian Taliban massively influencing politics and legislation. I dunno. AFAIAC, I´ve never felt persecuted in my entire active zoo life. Not before the ban on "zoophilia" of 2013, not after.
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2 hours ago, 30-30 said:
in the USA you have those Christian Taliban massively influencing politics and legislation.
Ow!
If only it weren't so.....
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4 hours ago, Resident Hyaena said:
Could you maybe clarify or elaborate upon that?
RM, I'm -terribly- sorry. I didn't mean for that to sound like I was saying you were a problem: It was late and my grammar was terrible that night. What I was referring to was that acting on your attraction sexually towards Avians wasn't really a straight forward possibility. That was in reference to 30-30 saying you had to 'have experience' to be a Zoo. What I was saying was that for some attractions (Birds, Fish / sharks, Reptiles..) it's virtually impossible. Either due to risk of injury to the animal, or a difficulty of meeting the animal you're attracted to. Which of course was brought up in our discussion of what 'makes a zoo' well, a zoophile: the whole reality vs. fantasy, online vs. Real Life sort of thing.
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4 hours ago, covfefelake said:
When you face social venom of this extent, the law will never be a "paper tiger." The risk of an outing developing legal consqequences is real, and the fact is, humans are notoriously noisy about their love lives. If you aren't, then YOU are the exception, not the rule.
The thing you have to understand, as 30-30 said, and I discovered after digging a little deeper once one of our conversations concluded above is: a -lot- of the venom was brought upon us, *by* us! People like Ken Pinyin for example: he wasn't 'in love' with horses, he didn't do it for the stud's pleasure, he did it to 'feel', he was a masochist. I can confirm this after reading some of the older BF threads and some more articles on the subject. I do disagree with a lot of the legislation, and I hate that it's so 'blanketed', there's not even a litmus test required for abuse, but again the 'majority' of our 'community' being stupid has played a role.
Especially with paperclip and panic laws that went into effect after Ken died. I wish we could do a more 'case by case' basis on Bestiality: I really do, but it won't happen for a *long* time, reason: people debate logic until blue, morals (which are subjective), ethics (which are a little more objective but can be biased based on perspective), and 'consent' (which is bullshit if you look at typical 'animal ownership').
No one though, and I mean hardly -NO ONE- asks us about emotion. How does your partner make you feel, what would you do without him / her? Do you feel any attraction towards your own species? I can answer all three. First, like I was on top of the world, always had a smile on my face and was always happy, especially when I could give that big black-and-tan beau of mine a big ol' hug.
When I lost him the world went dark for a few days, I was shattered like a dropped glass, even getting out of bed was hard for me after he passed. Lastly, no, no attraction at all towards humans in a romantic, deeply emotional or physical way.
As stated too, I've been on several dates, talked to a few groups of people, tried local events and even been in a couple relationships: none worked out for me, at all.
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3 hours ago, 30-30 said:
Christian Taliban
Don't forget Catholic, everything is evil! Including our bodies! Ugh, what a joke...
The US is a bit worse because even speaking of your 'love' on video could be enough to get you 'looked into', however if you're still smart and don't have 10 GB of video of you going down on fido you're probably alright...
Society needs time, as I've said before and we have to be careful. Also, as you've said 30-30: when I told you of me and my lover, emotions play a big role. Tell people how you feel when you can trust them enough, my friend accepted me without issue: hell most all of them have and have actually asked me questions on the matter I've never expected.
Questions like relation to intelligence, how do I keep my mind active in what would seem like a 'hollow' relationship to them, etc..
I've also done some serious thinking, something I thought was missing just popped back in to my head after all these years. The big difference between being a beastie and a zoo: the emotions involved, as simple as that.
As much as I kind of wand to give some of the ZETA fellows the 'brass balls award': the big question still stands, do they just want free-dog-fucking rights? Or are ones like Burdinski really passionate about Joey (his Husky 'lover' at the time of his 'interview')? Does Kiok really care about his GSD or just want a right to fuck and post pics?
I'm sure 30-30 probably knows a bit more than I do on that front as I can't read / speak German, and I have no US group for frame of reference. US folks are a little more nuts and I have a feeling even mention of a group like ZV would cause riots, house raids and pant-less lynchings in the streets.. Okay, maybe a bit over-exaggerated on that one: but not by much I have a feeling.
Especially in an area like mine where it's rural and still pretty heavily religious. We're supposed to be 'tough guys who like beer, pussy, titties and shotguns', not guys who enjoy mutual pleasure with a male dog... [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/tongue.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=":P" width="20" />
Just a quick P.S. too: I won't be commenting or interjecting on anything to do with Rannoch, I didn't know the fellow well enough nor the situations past well enough to stick my muzzle where it doesn't belong.
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