A familiar cry of the 'Anti's" is we 'train' the animals, through force usually, to have sex with us. I strongly disagree with the 'force' statement, though it had strong roots in the animal porn industry of the 90's and that probably continues in the more abusive porn centers today. Like most "Anti" statements & positions, it wasn't unfounded just misdirected when pointed at the individual zoo.
Or was it? As a professional animal trainer I have looked at this question many times in the past. Is sex with us simple rote, a behavior & reward system placed upon the animal? Or is it a conscious choice made by them because they want sex with a species other than their own?
Or maybe a combination of the two? The first time or two the former & those after the latter?
Your thoughts? I'll give you mine in a bit...
sw
Well, it comes down to the fact, that animals are born with sexual needs. There's training to get the body positions just right from instinct to experience. But other than that, instinct does take over and that's not something we as humans are responsible for. Other than initial stimulation, which then is a learned behavior of strong importance to each individual animal and their own relationship with you as a leader or even sexual mate.
Quite frankly it is a matter of anti zoophiles trying to make a case out of, nothing. They'd have a better time putting that training argument against animal dildo makers than they would actual zoophiles. Keep in mind, they think we're all bestialists so better be prepared to defend love over sex at the cost of nobody listening.
The more domesticated an animal is, the more they have to be coaxed into following their instincts. That's not something you can exactly breed into someone, even if you have generations of lines where the animals themselves are accustomed to doing one thing. Herding, protecting, attacking etc. All animals breed, that's one thing that unifies us all. I'd be more concerned if the antizoos are spreading stories around that we're torturing animals to obey us sexually, than I would by a basic training system where the reward is food even though to be honest, they wouldn't be happy with the results if someone showed that there's no ultimatums involved.
So long as the uneducated are in power, they will spread lies to newer generations. That is who we must fight over anyone, is those who are willing to listen to education and the data such brings fourth, not just about zoophilia, but about other world events, climate change, environmental improvements etc.
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1 hour ago, silverwolf1 said:
Or maybe a combination of the two? The first time or two the former & those after the latter?
I'm going to say usually this. Or more appropriately "bribery". Put feed in front of a herbivore in particular, and for this bribe she clearly understands and consents. Not different than getting a cow to stand for milking in front of a feeder.
For dogs the "bribe" is getting attention, contact, play time, same result as throwing a ball. (Do you really think dogs crave tennis balls? Nah, it's to make their owners happy). A Dane bitch flopping down on her back and smiling when you touch her flank a certain way is the same thing. Even when she's not in heat, making her human happy makes her happy.
For dogs there's also an apparent "status" thing in play. Being selected/mated by the human "pack alpha" makes her the Alpha Female, at least for the moment. She gets to flaunt her favored status to the others. (I used to have a horse like that; damn would he show off to the others when he "got to" be ridden.) The alpha mare was more of a "feed whore". She would show every physical genital behavior of estrus for a can of feed. I knew without looking when the feed was gone; her genitals went back to normal. If I wanted more, "Give me more feed". A clear agreement; she knew she had me by the short hairs...
I've had a few "rescue/re-home" bitches and one rescued-from-the-slaughter-market Suffolk show ewe that their first move when they got to their new home was to cement their standing/status by soliciting sex, going from "new outsider" to "Alpha's Favorite" in the wink of a, well, vulva. (And also revealing their previous owner's "Little Secret".)
(I am referring in all cases to female animals and vaginal sex (vaginal as well as enthusiastic oral/licking by the ewe). I'm not into m/m or anal, so not offering any opinion there.)
There's more than one question here.
Train or teach? Training is a catch all for directed instruction. Teaching is helping someone find things they already want.
Rewards? Is an orgasm a reward or a goal? The use of food definitely shows a lack of interest.
Instinct vs learned stimulation? Is it conditioning if you teach them signals other than in species pheromones to indicate a desire for sex or is it just good communication?
I think the most useful indication of the animal's feelings is how they use/extend what we teach them. When they add to a behavior that we taught, you have the very definition of active participation/consent. My stallion is a perfect example of this. I taught him early in our relationship that he could point to an itch and I would scratch it for him. The first time we had sex he needed a mare in heat on the other side of the gate to make it to completion. The third time he dropped out a semi-erection and pointed to it. The extension of pointing was all his idea.
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9 hours ago, silverwolf1 said:
Or is it a conscious choice made by them because they want sex with a species other than their own?
This is often the case when: 1) they have been raised with a species other than their own (human or other) for so long that they have come to regard the other species as one of their own, and 2) they are in estrus. They are a lot more flexible in their choice of mates at that time; a different species male that she considers one of her own is likely to be solicited and accepted.
Although since most female animals spend most of their lives out of estrus, and the instinct is usually to avoid sex out-of-estrus, the choice or solicitation to do so during that time is likely "a behavior & reward system". Although I think that terminology is short-changing her taking initiative to knowingly decide to do what she wants to do for her own reasons.
Male animals are a different case, since they are required by nature to recognize and act on signals and opportunities (within seasonal hormonal fluctuations), so recognizing variations on those signals is likely more instinctive for them than it is for out-of-estrus females.
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8 hours ago, elshara said:
Keep in mind, they think we're all bestialists
Those of us sexually active with non-human animals are.
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8 hours ago, elshara said:
Quite frankly it is a matter of anti zoophiles trying to make a case out of, nothing.
You're missing the point of the discussion. This isn't an "anti-zoo attack" question, it's a question of how our partners actually have come to have sex with another species. THAT is not instinct, and can not be so easily dismissed. Nor have the "Anti's" made a case out of nothing. They have a very large, very valid body of evidence from both the porn industry produced by so-called 'zoophiles' (not to mention the other commercial animal porn) and individual abusers who have labeled themselves 'zoophile' since the internet's birth. That argument is off this threads topic though.
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8 hours ago, elshara said:
So long as the uneducated are in power, they will spread lies to newer generations. That is who we must fight over anyone, is those who are willing to listen to education
You're too busy picking fights..
sw
Well animals are not mindless. They learn like everyone else. I'm surprised science can't prove that body language is almost universal just like emotions are. Humans thinking with their hearts more will make a huge difference in also quelling the need to be bestial just because they want to get off or make a profit for porn industry, making these incidents less.
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21 hours ago, caikgoch said:
There's more than one question here.
Train or teach? Training is a catch all for directed instruction. Teaching is helping someone find things they already want.
Rewards? Is an orgasm a reward or a goal? The use of food definitely shows a lack of interest.
Instinct vs learned stimulation? Is it conditioning if you teach them signals other than in species pheromones to indicate a desire for sex or is it just good communication?
I think the most useful indication of the animal's feelings is how they use/extend what we teach them. When they add to a behavior that we taught, you have the very definition of active participation/consent. My stallion is a perfect example of this. I taught him early in our relationship that he could point to an itch and I would scratch it for him. The first time we had sex he needed a mare in heat on the other side of the gate to make it to completion. The third time he dropped out a semi-erection and pointed to it. The extension of pointing was all his idea.
I actually really like this perspective on the situation, and can tell you from my own experiences and growing knowledge involving my German Shepherd pup: that it's teaching over 'training' (the catch-all term). They ('non-humans', 'animals') do understand what sex is once instinct starts to take over, the only 'teaching' that may have to occur here is teaching position as well as cues: but that's something their own species has to do among themselves anyways.
Sex is a large part of social mammals' development and growth, as well as bonding: we are no different nor do we hold any superiority here. IMHO it's also worth noting most 'animals' are Hedonists, meaning thei pursue pleasure, often to a fault in some cases: if it does them good, feels good... they'll seek it out, of course depending on their personality, and perspective on such things.
I've had dogs who've shown zero interest in me, I've had dogs throughout my life who've shown rampant sexual interest in me, with no previous interactions, from me nor ot hers they have lived with.
So, in short: I think there are concepts that human / Non-human teach *each other* on the side of sex, but apart from the 'terrible porn' where things are forced, no: I don't think it's training, nor do I think it's necessary to train such things.
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15 hours ago, heavyhorse said:
This is often the case when: 1) they have been raised with a species other than their own (human or other) for so long that they have come to regard the other species as one of their own, and 2) they are in estrus. They are a lot more flexible in their choice of mates at that time; a different species male that she considers one of her own is likely to be solicited and accepted.
Although since most female animals spend most of their lives out of estrus, and the instinct is usually to avoid sex out-of-estrus, the choice or solicitation to do so during that time is likely "a behavior & reward system". Although I think that terminology is short-changing her taking initiative to knowingly decide to do what she wants to do for her own reasons.
Male animals are a different case, since they are required by nature to recognize and act on signals and opportunities (within seasonal hormonal fluctuations), so recognizing variations on those signals is likely more instinctive for them than it is for out-of-estrus females.
Yes. Animals have a sense of when they are needed, whether it be for sex, food, play and teaching through their familiar bonds.
First, I need to mention that a majority of my experience is with dogs, primarily males. I have had a fair number of dogs clearly show sexual interest in me, even on first meeting them. We're not talking about random excitement or dominance mounting, but clearly visible arousal. Others need to be shown that sexual behavior between them and myself is possible and acceptable. Sure, that often as not involves a little gentle, manual stimulation.
As individuals, they can be interested or not and will clearly let me know. Of course, I respect their wishes. I have been told "NO!" in no uncertain terms by various animals, though some of them have offered themselves for sex or even solicited me at a later time. Some of my dogs have come to me as older, neutered males who, at first, seemed uninterested, somewhat put-off or even a bit afraid but have come back for more later. Others have been more like, "I don't want that, let's do this." The most notable here was a Rotty many years ago who told me "Don't even THINK about touching my balls! Oh, but here's my penis... Give it a squeeze, you know you want to,"
I don't use food as a bribe. With dogs, at least, food tends to distract them from the business at hand.
Getting to the bare bones of the topic... Many people who I have encountered online insist that my dogs only engage in sex with me because they are trained to or "to please their master." My usual reply to them is that if I could train my dogs to accept handling that they dislike or is uncomfortable to them, they would sit quietly for things like nail trimming or ear cleaning. Getting out the nail clippers or the ear wash bottle is the best way I know of to witness the "Amazing Disappearing Dog Trick."
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