I wanted to broach this topic in an ethics versus morals essay, but I have not been able to organize my thoughts on this into an essay, so thought I'd just make a rambling forum post for now instead. Hopefully I can work it into a fuller, proper essay.
I am, by no means, a professional psychologist; I lack a basic academic competency. I do, however, consider myself an observer of human behavior -- my own and others. I try to correlate cause and effect, understand why I and others have irrational thoughts, act impulsively, or have mine/our/their thoughts and emotions distorted and biased by depression, anxiety, and other afflictions.
Being a zoophile, of course, I apply this to zoophilia. In my view, nothing happens nor exists in complete isolation. Every action has complex reactions.
On this, for this specific topic, I would like to illuminate my notion that breaking that interspecies barrier is an experience. Its a complex barrier -- sex crime law, cultural taboo, religious sacrilege which is not insignificant for the origins of some of us, and other aspects. I think we do not think about this except in a positive light, and from the perspective of mental health, I think its a mistake to presume it is entirely positive.
When we break these barriers, my concern is that it becomes easier to dismiss, disregard or otherwise view with disdain other barriers we had not previously considered broachable. Hard drug use, theft, pedophilia ... I am certainly not saying breaching the species barrier means we would do these things or breach other barriers, but I think it makes us less resistant to trying to broach them if we feel an impulse or urge. The point I am trying to make is to be cognizant of this prospect, bear it in mind. I consider a moral and ethical code to be crucial, don't just throw morals or ethics away just because the code you used to live by that said bestiality was animal rape and a debasement of humanity. Don't retaliate the torches and pitchforks lobbed at us by bullying/trolling someone you view as weaker. One of the manifestations of this, I think, is the tendancy of some to bully/troll "newbie" zoophiles just finding their way to the community, I have even seen that here. Not everyone has the same makeup, and not everyone's situation is the same. /No one/ needs to have more stress. If you feel better about yourself when you put someone down, your wiring is amiss and I would be less than confident I could trust you to truly respect the animal objects of your desire. And while my opinion of you is easy to dismiss, I hope some part of you might try to take pause and carefully consider your action.
If an action is worth doing, its worth spending more time thinking through beforehand than it takes to actually execute the action, or to take a page from carpentry: measure twice, cut once.
04-04-2018, 10:30 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-04-2018, 11:01 PM by Saturnine.)
Quote:
7 hours ago, Eagle said:
Don't retaliate the torches and pitchforks lobbed at us by bullying/trolling someone you view as weaker. One of the manifestations of this, I think, is the tendancy of some to bully/troll "newbie" zoophiles just finding their way to the community, I have even seen that here. Not everyone has the same makeup, and not everyone's situation is the same.
Being a disabled hippophile who has never touched a horse before, this is the hardest thing to deal with. Not only have people treated me with disrespect, but they also don't seem to want anything to do with this problem. I see people getting all the chances in the world to be around horses, while I get spat on by other zoos for simply venting my discontent with an objectively shitty hand.
I might as well be Hitler.
Hell, I still don't have anyone to talk to about this. It goes to show how uncaring a lot of zoos can be.
Yeah, Saturnine, you "never had someone to talk about this".....except when you joined several forums to spread the same story over and over again, regardless whether people gave you legit and reasonable advice or not. " Hey, just do X to gain access to horses..." - "NOOOO, I can´t do X because yaddayadda...." The only person who actually spits on you is yourself with your pathetic reiteration of " I´m the saddest and most depressive person in the world and it´s entirely and totally the world´s fault" in EVERY SINGLE FUCKING POST. Even when it´s totally unrelated. You´re an egotist , the whole world seems to revolve around yourself and your unfulfilled wishes. Stop hijacking every single thread with your crap and miss me with that bs. Maybe things would go differently for you if you weren´t constantly behaving like a petulant child that blames the world and everything for your situation, but not your own inactivity. I´ve seen all kinds of disabled persons having access to horses in one way or another, so it basically IS your fault here, it´s not your disability that keeps you back. And if you truly are disabled beyond anything, then why keep fantasising about something your disability will never allow you? Just cut it out, participate in here without making every little post about your "oh so desperate situation"...I guess I can legitimately claim to speak for more than just me here when I´m saying that I´m sick and tired of your repetitive posts. We´ve been through the same on reddit and others told me that your appearance on ZF also went down the same path.
Quote:
8 hours ago, Eagle said:
I wanted to broach this topic in an ethics versus morals essay, but I have not been able to organize my thoughts on this into an essay, so thought I'd just make a rambling forum post for now instead. Hopefully I can work it into a fuller, proper essay.
I am, by no means, a professional psychologist; I lack a basic academic competency. I do, however, consider myself an observer of human behavior -- my own and others. I try to correlate cause and effect, understand why I and others have irrational thoughts, act impulsively, or have mine/our/their thoughts and emotions distorted and biased by depression, anxiety, and other afflictions.
Being a zoophile, of course, I apply this to zoophilia. In my view, nothing happens nor exists in complete isolation. Every action has complex reactions.
On this, for this specific topic, I would like to illuminate my notion that breaking that interspecies barrier is an experience. Its a complex barrier -- sex crime law, cultural taboo, religious sacrilege which is not insignificant for the origins of some of us, and other aspects. I think we do not think about this except in a positive light, and from the perspective of mental health, I think its a mistake to presume it is entirely positive.
When we break these barriers, my concern is that it becomes easier to dismiss, disregard or otherwise view with disdain other barriers we had not previously considered broachable. Hard drug use, theft, pedophilia ... I am certainly not saying breaching the species barrier means we would do these things or breach other barriers, but I think it makes us less resistant to trying to broach them if we feel an impulse or urge. The point I am trying to make is to be cognizant of this prospect, bear it in mind. I consider a moral and ethical code to be crucial, don't just throw morals or ethics away just because the code you used to live by that said bestiality was animal rape and a debasement of humanity. Don't retaliate the torches and pitchforks lobbed at us by bullying/trolling someone you view as weaker. One of the manifestations of this, I think, is the tendancy of some to bully/troll "newbie" zoophiles just finding their way to the community, I have even seen that here. Not everyone has the same makeup, and not everyone's situation is the same. /No one/ needs to have more stress. If you feel better about yourself when you put someone down, your wiring is amiss and I would be less than confident I could trust you to truly respect the animal objects of your desire. And while my opinion of you is easy to dismiss, I hope some part of you might try to take pause and carefully consider your action.
If an action is worth doing, its worth spending more time thinking through beforehand than it takes to actually execute the action, or to take a page from carpentry: measure twice, cut once.
I never saw my sexuality as breaking the interspecies barrier. Breaking taboos, be it religious, cultural or sexual ones, never played any role for me. I applaud you for seeing the positive prejudices we as a community often fall for and would absolutely subscribe to this point of you of a severe lack of introspection into our own common beliefs and dogmata. Positive prejudice also is prejudice.
But it isn´t exactly a secret that many are attracted to animals mainly because of thrillseeking and taboobreaking. And like with everything that grants adrenaline rushes, you can get addicted to that. I wouldn´t say it necessarily leads to hard drugs and paedophilia, but it´s also no secret that breaking the first taboo indeed makes breaking another taboo easier for some individuals. It´s not about resistance, it´s about what you truly are inside.
The real problem behind moral and ethics codes is that everyone seems to create these on their own and for themselves. These moral codes exist , they´re called the zeta rules and have been constantly "adjusted, reinvented and adapted" over the years a.k.a. watered down to fit one´s own needs and beliefs.The most common denominator tactics. Until the moral scale reaches absolute zero regions.Because of "tolerance".
And now look around you....we´re constantly debating about even the most basic things like "zoo exclusivity" and where the line between beasty and zoo is to be drawn...so...how plausible does it seem to unite this "basket of flea" cornucopia of "zoos" under the same set of morals?
You made a very smart remark by saying that nothing happens in complete isolation. Yeah, true that...but let´s apply this piece of essential wisdom to , let´s say, the recently introduced laws against "zoophilia", shall we? Not one lawmaker enthusiastically said "I! I! I will take care of the animal fuckery!" out of the blue, so there have to be some reasons why this worldwide tsunami of new laws ran over our community...and can you guess what made lawmakers turn towards us? Could it be that our community in its total and sheepish belief in "tolerance" as THE core principle that outweighs everything else, even the most basic self preservation principles, is to blame? That we as a community have fooled ourselves into this hug box mentality where every criticism is seen as an attack, where every effort to bring our ethical principles to life again is seen as "intolerance" and "hate"? We lost our ideals, we dismissed the bouncer protecting us from nutjobs and impostors, we not only tolerated (sic!) those among us, we made them a part of our community...without further thoughts about what these folks will bring with them, trouble, public attention, drama and even the will to take our community hostage. In the name of "tolerance" , we dropped all our defenses and now we are honestly surprised that we are holding the charred remains of what once was hope for a better tomorrow for zoophiles in our bruised and battered hands. I said it before so many times.....Zoophiles are their own worst enemy. There is no way that an outsider or an anti could ever inflict so much damage to our community, our ideals and our future perspective in its sheepish submission to the "tolerance" dogma did. "Behold, the sword aiming at your heart...it is held by your own hand!"
About "bullying newbies"...well, that is directly connected to the paragraph before. What you call "bullying", isn´t... if you want to keep out all the antisocial elements that otherwise would "crash your party, rape the dog and rip down the house", then I don´t see what is so damnable about a little "vetting" process applied to newbies. If our community only would have stuck to that principle from the first generation online zoos, a whole shitton of problems would have missed us, a whole lot of problems would not be the same huge size, so in the end, I don´t see why we should perpetuate this hug box mentality and put a falsely understood "tolerance" (a.k.a. indifference) above everything else. Example: Some reddit zoo sub users may remember a user called "Hedonist Glen". This guy was an absolute jerk, a misogynic bastard fencehopper claiming that "women are assholes for not liking him" while heput a "personal ad" as an "expert pussy licker" in another sub. Do you really want those toxic elements , in the name of "tolerance"? A vetting process at the "door" IS needed and should not be mistaken for "giving a weaker newbie a bad time for shits and giggles". We SUFFER from the "tolerance" dogma...and until this community has learned that simple fact, nothing will change because WE are UNABLE to change first.
If there wasn´t this enormous discrepancy between in the principles we claim as ours and what we actually behave like everyday, with that "all inclusive" attitude, I could see what your criticism is aiming at, but as it is now, I´d say you´re missing out on an entire and essential part of the problem here. This community following the downward spiral of "more tolerance" actually is anger inducing to those of us who believe in values and definitions, besides the anger that is granted by emotional and horomonal imbalance that´s present in every human. "Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create bad times. Bad times create strong men." So, how much "bad times" does it need for you to do yourselves what you demand from society soooo desperately? Change??
Yes, it´s true that everyone comes from a different background. But that´s not the problem here, the problem is watering down everything this community once stood for with rules like "the animal always comes first". We´ve had an overdose of "tolerance" and hug box mentality and it terribly backfired, yet still no one is wondering whether it´s actually US who have to readjust and change. I´m German and used to Merkel´s typical "Weiter so!" (just continue as usual) and thus I know where this leads to. Encrustation, apathy and rising anger. This community went down the same path long ago, the mechanisms are the same and the outcome will also be the same. Maybe...just maybe...could it be those "troublemakers" and "newbie attackers" are the logical "harvest" of sowing bad seeds of sheepish "indifferent tolerance"? And what about those troublemakers? Don´t you think that many of you incite this anger that leads to fighting and banning by dismissing every criticism without even giving one thought to whether they might be onto something, regardless of the tone they are using? Just take the now closed thread of cat as an example...this was about zoo exclusivity and who can call himself that. I was writing some replies in there also...and the most laid back answer to my posts came from Silverwolf who still grumpily said that he doesn´t care about labels. All the others were fighting like it´s about the last can of oxygen on Mars...for something they claim has no real use and is "just a label". Not very logical, if you ask me. So, could it be that a lot of the blame for the current situation is on YOU, the "oh so tolerant majority"...for not considering any criticism worth thinking about it, for dismissing critics with buzzwords and the usual "Totschlagargument" shtick of "You´re intolerant, hateful and I won´t listen to anything you have to say". This exact same arrogance of the "progressive, tolerant" folks was what made the conservatives rise again around the globe. I´m totally not on the alt-right side and despise the AfD, that hydrogen blonde Dutch moron, the hija de puta of LePen,Trump and his cronies from the bottom of my heart, but they actually bring up some (!) valid points about what went wrong in our society by mindlessly worshipping "tolerance" principles and this retarded SJW "culture". When criticism is dismissed categorically for "inciting fights" and "disturbing the peace", then things get nasty. As they got in our community over the years, with many of the good and genuine folks actually contributing to the discourse leaving because of this immovable, inadaptable irrational belief in "tolerance". For the community not even living up to its propagated principles for even one second, for all the ethical and moral principles being thrown away once pants are unzipped...and applauded by many in our community.
Many would call me a troublemaker too, and maybe they´re right about that. But ,as you said, nothing happens in total isolation, and we troublemakers are no exception to that rule. So I demand the same you demand here from me, meditate about those troublemakers and why they´re acting the way they do. Could it be they´re onto something that terribly needs to be adressed in our community? That it´s those who see a bit farther than the common tolerazombie. I as one of those assholes have predicted the current situation back in the nineties already: I said "if we as a community can´t keep our own turf clean, can´t implement a binding set of rules that is obligatory to obey to for memebership in our community without and debate and bargaining, we soon will be marginalised and made punishable before the law". Sadly, everything went exactly like I predicted. Now we have the mess...and a shitload of "zoos" who go the path of least resistance and solely blame "the society" for what this has become. Pointing fingers at "the unjust and hateful people" ...so, everything is comfy, everything is black-and-white. "They" are evil and "we" are saints. "They" are absolute shit, but "we" never make mistakes, not even a single one although reality says otherwise. Without a total reformation and renewal, our community will face its demise soon, the total and irreversible moral bankruptcy is immiment..in the name of "tolerance". "Nibelungentreue" beyond death...the golden calf you´re all dancing around while your world is crumbling around you. Apathy. Indifference. Trench fight mentality , "us" versus "them". Tribalism. Welcome to the jungle...
Quote:
2 hours ago, 30-30 said:
Yeah, Saturnine, you "never had someone to talk about this".....except when you joined several forums to spread the same story over and over again, regardless whether people gave you legit and reasonable advice or not. " Hey, just do X to gain access to horses..." - "NOOOO, I can´t do X because yaddayadda...." The only person who actually spits on you is yourself with your pathetic reiteration of " I´m the saddest and most depressive person in the world and it´s entirely and totally the world´s fault" in EVERY SINGLE FUCKING POST. Even when it´s totally unrelated. You´re an egotist , the whole world seems to revolve around yourself and your unfulfilled wishes. Stop hijacking every single thread with your crap and miss me with that bs. Maybe things would go differently for you if you weren´t constantly behaving like a petulant child that blames the world and everything for your situation, but not your own inactivity. I´ve seen all kinds of disabled persons having access to horses in one way or another, so it basically IS your fault here, it´s not your disability that keeps you back. And if you truly are disabled beyond anything, then why keep fantasising about something your disability will never allow you? Just cut it out, participate in here without making every little post about your "oh so desperate situation"...I guess I can legitimately claim to speak for more than just me here when I´m saying that I´m sick and tired of your repetitive posts. We´ve been through the same on reddit and others told me that your appearance on ZF also went down the same path.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Look at how they talk to me.
My posts aren't unrelated to the topics at hand, especially the other one I had made in this thread. I even quoted Eagle's text, and responded by giving a personal example. I could have taken the rest of his post into consideration, but I didn't have anything to say about it.
Quote:
39 minutes ago, 30-30 said:
I never saw my sexuality as breaking the interspecies barrier. Breaking taboos, be it religious, cultural or sexual ones, never played any role for me. I applaud you for seeing the positive prejudices we as a community often fall for and would absolutely subscribe to this point of you of a severe lack of introspection into our own common beliefs and dogmata. Positive prejudice also is prejudice.
But it isn´t exactly a secret that many are attracted to animals mainly because of thrillseeking and taboobreaking. And like with everything that grants adrenaline rushes, you can get addicted to that. I wouldn´t say it necessarily leads to hard drugs and paedophilia, but it´s also no secret that breaking the first taboo indeed makes breaking another taboo easier for some individuals. It´s not about resistance, it´s about what you truly are inside.
The real problem behind moral and ethics codes is that everyone seems to create these on their own and for themselves. These moral codes exist , they´re called the zeta rules and have been constantly "adjusted, reinvented and adapted" over the years a.k.a. watered down to fit one´s own needs and beliefs.The most common denominator tactics. Until the moral scale reaches absolute zero regions.Because of "tolerance".
There are plenty of mass-followed "moral" and "ethical" codes that I consider a problem. Many have "the word of god" telling their followers to treat nonbelievers (heathens, infidels, what-have-you) disrespectfully, and terrible bloody wars with high civilian death tolls have been waged purely because "my religion is right and yours is wrong!"
And now look around you....we´re constantly debating about even the most basic things like "zoo exclusivity" and where the line between beasty and zoo is to be drawn...so...how plausible does it seem to unite this "basket of flea" cornucopia of "zoos" under the same set of morals?
Its a very old fight predating my "delurk" into the zoo community in 1997 by several years. There's cliquishness, "I'm a more devout follower of this club than thou!" one-upmanship in every group.
You made a very smart remark by saying that nothing happens in complete isolation. Yeah, true that...but let´s apply this piece of essential wisdom to , let´s say, the recently introduced laws against "zoophilia", shall we? Not one lawmaker enthusiastically said "I! I! I will take care of the animal fuckery!" out of the blue, so there have to be some reasons why this worldwide tsunami of new laws ran over our community...and can you guess what made lawmakers turn towards us? Could it be that our community in its total and sheepish belief in "tolerance" as THE core principle that outweighs everything else, even the most basic self preservation principles, is to blame? That we as a community have fooled ourselves into this hug box mentality where every criticism is seen as an attack, where every effort to bring our ethical principles to life again is seen as "intolerance" and "hate"? We lost our ideals, we dismissed the bouncer protecting us from nutjobs and impostors, we not only tolerated (sic!) those among us, we made them a part of our community...without further thoughts about what these folks will bring with them, trouble, public attention, drama and even the will to take our community hostage. In the name of "tolerance" , we dropped all our defenses and now we are honestly surprised that we are holding the charred remains of what once was hope for a better tomorrow for zoophiles in our bruised and battered hands. I said it before so many times.....Zoophiles are their own worst enemy. There is no way that an outsider or an anti could ever inflict so much damage to our community, our ideals and our future perspective in its sheepish submission to the "tolerance" dogma did. "Behold, the sword aiming at your heart...it is held by your own hand!"
Actually, my perception is a variety of different events brought us into the limelight -- the infamous Jerry Springer episode with Hossie was a big one, and that was the "Zoophile Outreach Organization" intentionally putting us out there (which triggered quite a few states enacting anti-bestiality legislation), a myriad of bestiality stories making the news, probably the biggest of which was "Mr. Hands" ... a zoophile in my neck of the woods had years of experience going to a private zoophile gathering, having drinks and having sex with a stallion there, had a bit too much to drink and things went extremely badly; he was seriously injured, rupturing his colon, and despite the serious pain, the fear out outting led to a fatal delay in getting him any medical care; he was dropped off at a hospital but by then it was too late and he died. This triggered an police investigation and, yeah, the police got their hands on porn, names, etc., and the news story made big headlines and this state where it happened quickly passed its first anti-bestiality legislation. I think this story gets badly overlooked by those whom preach "never go to meets, don't share personal information, fuck animals in private and that's the way to be because that's the only safe and secure way" completely ignore -- it wasn't a law enforcement spying/infiltration that triggered the law enforcement and legislative army against us, but a death caused by a moment's recklessness by a zoophile at a private gathering strictly among very familiar zoophile friends.
About "bullying newbies"...well, that is directly connected to the paragraph before. What you call "bullying", isn´t... if you want to keep out all the antisocial elements that otherwise would "crash your party, rape the dog and rip down the house", then I don´t see what is so damnable about a little "vetting" process applied to newbies. If our community only would have stuck to that principle from the first generation online zoos, a whole shitton of problems would have missed us, a whole lot of problems would not be the same huge size, so in the end, I don´t see why we should perpetuate this hug box mentality and put a falsely understood "tolerance" (a.k.a. indifference) above everything else. Example: Some reddit zoo sub users may remember a user called "Hedonist Glen". This guy was an absolute jerk, a misogynic bastard fencehopper claiming that "women are assholes for not liking him" while heput a "personal ad" as an "expert pussy licker" in another sub. Do you really want those toxic elements , in the name of "tolerance"? A vetting process at the "door" IS needed and should not be mistaken for "giving a weaker newbie a bad time for shits and giggles". We SUFFER from the "tolerance" dogma...and until this community has learned that simple fact, nothing will change because WE are UNABLE to change first.
No, no, very much no. It is bullying. There is constructive criticism, yes, but its interspersed with irrational, illogical and unsupported condescension that is, absolutely, bullying/trolling, particularly given its concentrated on someone whom is, clearly, in pain and psychologically vulnerable. This shit was done to me when I was a newbie, and there were people trying to give me constructive advice at the same time, but to me it all blended together. You aren't able to learn something genuine if its delivered in an avalanche of trolling condescension, everything handed to you that's at all critical will blend together on the recipient. I went through this, I've seen it hundreds of times, and its being done again. The trounce-the-weakling mentality you defend I find I cannot trust to truly love any being beyond a sexual sense. I've seen through it, I had one as a boyfriend, I have seen the underside of that shell and realized how abusive they were through and through ... find a sex dog, fuck it, throw it outside when done, bully some weaklings online. I've been an eyewitness to this very close up. I myself was the subject of this crap when I delurked, and I realized I couldn't see the genuine advice because of the avalanche of trolling shit that came with it.
If there wasn´t this enormous discrepancy between in the principles we claim as ours and what we actually behave like everyday, with that "all inclusive" attitude, I could see what your criticism is aiming at, but as it is now, I´d say you´re missing out on an entire and essential part of the problem here. This community following the downward spiral of "more tolerance" actually is anger inducing to those of us who believe in values and definitions, besides the anger that is granted by emotional and horomonal imbalance that´s present in every human. "Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create bad times. Bad times create strong men." So, how much "bad times" does it need for you to do yourselves what you demand from society soooo desperately? Change??
I have abandoned my "all-inclusiveness." Some traits I find intolerantly repugnant, even from someone else calling themselves a zoophile. The "community" has never really been a unified, all-marching-in-step, and I'm less inclined than I used to be to try to make it such. Every zoophile has weakness. I am beyond sick and tired of this denial of mental and emotional troubles. Its a complete shell and farce, its self-delusional and insensitive, and it makes one completely blind to the abuses one wreaks on others. Being a troll or a bully does not require conscious thoughts of "I want to hurt this weakling for the sake of hurting them because I am evil!" All it requires is ignoring pain one causes others. Not considering yourself a bully is no more valid at determining if you are one than checking onesself for bad breath. We are all self-blind and self-deluded. If you haven't learned that, then you are completely oblivious to your effect on others, including whether or not you are a bully.
Yes, it´s true that everyone comes from a different background. But that´s not the problem here, the problem is watering down everything this community once stood for with rules like "the animal always comes first". We´ve had an overdose of "tolerance" and hug box mentality and it terribly backfired, yet still no one is wondering whether it´s actually US who have to readjust and change. I´m German and used to Merkel´s typical "Weiter so!" (just continue as usual) and thus I know where this leads to. Encrustation, apathy and rising anger. This community went down the same path long ago, the mechanisms are the same and the outcome will also be the same. Maybe...just maybe...could it be those "troublemakers" and "newbie attackers" are the logical "harvest" of sowing bad seeds of sheepish "indifferent tolerance"? And what about those troublemakers? Don´t you think that many of you incite this anger that leads to fighting and banning by dismissing every criticism without even giving one thought to whether they might be onto something, regardless of the tone they are using? Just take the now closed thread of cat as an example...this was about zoo exclusivity and who can call himself that. I was writing some replies in there also...and the most laid back answer to my posts came from Silverwolf who still grumpily said that he doesn´t care about labels. All the others were fighting like it´s about the last can of oxygen on Mars...for something they claim has no real use and is "just a label". Not very logical, if you ask me. So, could it be that a lot of the blame for the current situation is on YOU, the "oh so tolerant majority"...for not considering any criticism worth thinking about it, for dismissing critics with buzzwords and the usual "Totschlagargument" shtick of "You´re intolerant, hateful and I won´t listen to anything you have to say". This exact same arrogance of the "progressive, tolerant" folks was what made the conservatives rise again around the globe. I´m totally not on the alt-right side and despise the AfD, that hydrogen blonde Dutch moron, the hija de puta of LePen,Trump and his cronies from the bottom of my heart, but they actually bring up some (!) valid points about what went wrong in our society by mindlessly worshipping "tolerance" principles and this retarded SJW "culture". When criticism is dismissed categorically for "inciting fights" and "disturbing the peace", then things get nasty. As they got in our community over the years, with many of the good and genuine folks actually contributing to the discourse leaving because of this immovable, inadaptable irrational belief in "tolerance". For the community not even living up to its propagated principles for even one second, for all the ethical and moral principles being thrown away once pants are unzipped...and applauded by many in our community.
<font color="#c0392b" face="Georgia, serif">I really don't see that this "community" ever truly, genuinely stood for anything consistently. I've heard espousements of ethics and morals from "zoophiles" whom I observed hitting or smacking their "lovers" and relegating them to a chain outside of fucking time. I was badly admonished myself from hypocrites. I hero-worshipped a few zoophiles, including Hossie -- but then found out the terrible conditions his animals were in. One of his roommates visited once with one of his Great Danes, so rife with ticks I filled a shot glass with them pulling those ticks out. I didn't say anything at the time, just focused on pulling them out. She was nervous and afraid of me at first, but while I imagine the pinching and such I was doing to pull those ticks out wasn't pleasant, she quickly took an appreciative liking to me, just over the few hours she was visiting with her pet human.</font>
Many would call me a troublemaker too, and maybe they´re right about that. But ,as you said, nothing happens in total isolation, and we troublemakers are no exception to that rule. So I demand the same you demand here from me, meditate about those troublemakers and why they´re acting the way they do. Could it be they´re onto something that terribly needs to be adressed in our community? That it´s those who see a bit farther than the common tolerazombie. I as one of those assholes have predicted the current situation back in the nineties already: I said "if we as a community can´t keep our own turf clean, can´t implement a binding set of rules that is obligatory to obey to for memebership in our community without and debate and bargaining, we soon will be marginalised and made punishable before the law". Sadly, everything went exactly like I predicted. Now we have the mess...and a shitload of "zoos" who go the path of least resistance and solely blame "the society" for what this has become. Pointing fingers at "the unjust and hateful people" ...so, everything is comfy, everything is black-and-white. "They" are evil and "we" are saints. "They" are absolute shit, but "we" never make mistakes, not even a single one although reality says otherwise. Without a total reformation and renewal, our community will face its demise soon, the total and irreversible moral bankruptcy is immiment..in the name of "tolerance". "Nibelungentreue" beyond death...the golden calf you´re all dancing around while your world is crumbling around you. Apathy. Indifference. Trench fight mentality , "us" versus "them". Tribalism. Welcome to the jungle...
I have pondered this a lot, and essentially my determination is not that we need to "cull the weak," we need to reign in the trolls and we very much need -- all people do, really -- to work to throw out our notions of mental illness and take a much healthier stance on it, much as better people focus on their physical fitness. Viewing emotional and mental unwellness as a weakness combined with proudly espousing being drama-free creates a very confident and convincing self-image that is completely false, and blinds every one whom builds such an emotional shell as to their abusive effects on others. I have not just been around this block several times, I've been deeply in the basement, between the walls and underneath the foundations of the buildings on this block.
Apologies I haven't figured out how to "break" quotes in formatting to avoid quoting in-line. Hopefully formatting my replies in italics, a different font and red text helps distinguish my replies from what I was quoting.
Quote:
3 hours ago, 30-30 said:
Yeah, Saturnine, you "never had someone to talk about this".....except when you joined several forums to spread the same story over and over again, regardless whether people gave you legit and reasonable advice or not. " Hey, just do X to gain access to horses..." - "NOOOO, I can´t do X because yaddayadda...." The only person who actually spits on you is yourself with your pathetic reiteration of " I´m the saddest and most depressive person in the world and it´s entirely and totally the world´s fault" in EVERY SINGLE FUCKING POST. Even when it´s totally unrelated. You´re an egotist , the whole world seems to revolve around yourself and your unfulfilled wishes. Stop hijacking every single thread with your crap and miss me with that bs. Maybe things would go differently for you if you weren´t constantly behaving like a petulant child that blames the world and everything for your situation, but not your own inactivity. I´ve seen all kinds of disabled persons having access to horses in one way or another, so it basically IS your fault here, it´s not your disability that keeps you back. And if you truly are disabled beyond anything, then why keep fantasising about something your disability will never allow you? Just cut it out, participate in here without making every little post about your "oh so desperate situation"...I guess I can legitimately claim to speak for more than just me here when I´m saying that I´m sick and tired of your repetitive posts. We´ve been through the same on reddit and others told me that your appearance on ZF also went down the same path.
30-30, look in the mirror and recognize the troll. 100% of that post was stomping on someone whom is hurting, and 0% was constructive. Does it make you feel strong and better about yourself when you stomp on someone whom is clearly in a lot of pain?
Eagle, when Saturnine/Darkspirit appeared on the reddit zoo sub, my first reaction to him was giving actual advice, without any "bullying". Even after he pulled off his ususal "no,no, because..." , I remained rather friendly and offered additional options. Nothing changed. Especially this case of Saturnine isn´t bullying from my side, it has a certain "history" . If you don´t believe me, ask Silverwolf about Saturnine´s/ Darkspirit´s back log on reddit...and then you might view the whole thing quite differently in an instant. And what I find most amusing about your typical SJW approach is the simple fact that we, you, I , nobody really knows whether this guy actually is having all those physical issues (which I quit to believe after he still had "excuses" when I was bringing up hippotherapy etc....hell, there are folks out there who are total wrecks and still enjoy their monthly therapeutic visits to the many hippotherapy stables in Germany) or whether this isn´t just a huge trick he plays on us all ,with his ulterior motive to gather enough pity so some dumb fool says "Well, you poor guy, come over and fuck my mare for free"...ridiculous hyperbole? Nah, I´ve seen this happen quite often in several "zoo" communities. So you could also blindly defend one of those guys who are only out there to get quick and easy sex for offering a heartripping pity story. Mind that, please...we don´t know whether anything this guy tells us is true. I´ve seen people lying in huge amounts for less...
So, let´s pick out some other topics: I´m glad you found out that "Hossie" is a shithead , but I did it without having to visit him in person. I just read his bullshit bible "The horseman" , in which he quite openly displays his true face as a bestialist who uses animals for quick sex and as a "more willing and less problematic" way to get laid. I absolutely reject your notion of the community as not standing for anything consistently, if this were true, then why are there the zeta rules that once were widely accepted as the core principles of our community until the porn craze of the 200s began and people were pouring into our community like mad. It was exactly this time we as a community sacrificed our ideals for sheer raise of quantity, falsely hoping that "more of us" would lead to a better stance in society and being heard more loudly. Boy, how wrong that assumption was. And when has our community´s goals shifted from providing protection for the animals living in a "zoo" relationship to making this solely about "the zoos", with only minor adjustments reagrding animal welfare? And who is to blame for that lack of a consistent moral code if not those who came in, tried to make "adjustments" (a.k.a. twist and contort everything to fit their needs and pamper their egos as "bona fide zoos"). Hossie, "Mr Hands" (sadly , not Mr Brains or he probably would still be alive today), Spink et al.
Yes, we all are deluded and self centered. Funny that it´s considered a given that you´re not deluded when you´re reguritating the widely accepted dogma...then you´re the "sane" and "reflected guy". Positive prejudice, paired with selective blindness. I don´t know about "every zoo has weakness"...seems just a generalised statement with no further win of insight to me. And even if that would be true, then that doesn´t make it zoo forums into recommended places for amateur psychotherapy, eh? By the way, one of the usual forms of therapy can be shock therapy or confrontational therapy. In this sense ,what the troublemakers and newbie attackers are doing can equally qualify as an approach to help. Let´s just say somebody is stuck in his fantasies like , well, some guy with alleged body dysfuctionalities and an overboarding desire to "touch a horse once"...I´ve seen people pamper him on reddit, supporting him etc...and? He still is the same, his shtick is the same, his egotistical way of annexing the entirety of this forum is the same. Sometimes, pampering and caring works, sometimes it doesn´t and a good ol´ fat kick in the back works just as well or even better. I can just point out how my "bullying" led to Darkspirit´s temporary phase of enlightenment on reddit, with him claiming that he won´t go back to his dark self again. Well, some people need to be constantly kicked in their arses, I assume... [img]<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/wink.png[/img]/emoticons/ [email protected] 2x" title=";)" width="20" /> Mind you, I´m not a "one trick pony" and can and have offered some helpful advice to newbies, according to the old zeta maxim of "Don´t talk them in, talk them out." Sometimes, it´s more about care to NOT try and get everyone inside...and in the end, who has care left for our community and the way it presents itself for decades as a cesspool of mad "fucks anything that walks", "has severe issues that need to be taken care of by a professional doctor" and all the other types of folks continually shaping our public image towards a negative extreme. Or where do you think society has its prejudices from?
Have I mentioned that I , when I was making my first steps in the community back in the begining of the nineties, I too was "bullied", but never interpreted that as bullying, but as the usual "steelbath" prospects trying to become members of a select group have to go through as an initiation ritual. Yes, an initiation ritual that helped to sort out all those who are more than wrong in our community when they´re breaking under the least little bit of pressure...and if you´re a practicing zoo, you should probably know that life itself is the ultimate bullying experience for any zoo. And exactly that was necessary to some extend, exactly that "bullying" was what kept our community relatively whacko free, spared us from the most of the roleplaying asshats and kept the fights to a reasonable level....have I mentioned that a whole lot of this so called "bullying" wouldn´t happen if ,IF people would stick to honesty, not calling themselves what they clearly aren´t, if people would not start bargaining every little rule once they realise they are not fitting into a specific group etc. pp. You´re quick at pointing out the bullies, but "nothing is happening in isolation", right? So, would you please turn your attention towards the reasons why "bullying" happens? Hint: It´s not solely the "bullies´" fault. We have no real culture of dissent in here.Never had, and especially will not have such a thing when this braindead "tolerance über alles" culture lasts infinitely.
Everything is detrimental in extremes...and our tolerance surely is way too extreme, generally speaking.We overdid it with tolerance and hug box mentality, we hardly have expectations in us as members and representants of this community, we irrationally shy away from any form of dissent because it makes us feel "insecure" and "uncomfortable"...disrupting the "playground peace"....just as if nothing has changed on the outside, just as if there are no new laws, no "zoo" incidents making it to the headlines , turning into clickbait for hundereds of thousands. This is what I accuse us of, we have become so entrenched in our own narrative, we can´t even imagine that it´s NOT society to blame for everything in its entirety.
So let me make this perfectly clear, despite being seen as a troublemaker and a bully by many here: I too have nearly the same basic goals, I too would like to see zoophilia decriminalised again, but with some limitations and restrictions preventing the worst excesses falsely happening in our name. I too would like to be part of an OPEN community that doesn´t dismiss criticism, even when it´s worded "offensive", because not everyone is a native speaker of English and surely struggles with the foreign language to some extent, often creating unwanted schisms without intent. I too want a community that helps newbies to develop and thrive. But reality tells me that the way you folks are going is the wrong one and is massively contributing to the ever declining possibility to change things for us zoos. Instead I see tribalism and practically the same form of wiping away any different opinion like the normal society does with yours regarding zoophilia....you´re usually portraying youselves as the "shiny tolernace knights", but in fact, you´re just like society and not openminded at all...at least when it comes to issues that would scratch or even destroy your dearly held self image. But in a really openminded crowd, there should be no taboo of criticism and people should pull their shit together instead of crying about being offended by words someone else types. If someone breaks up from this, how is he supposed to actually live the life of a zoo that´s basically stuffed with all sorts of rejection, evil stares, negative situations and suspicions? We should see this online zoo forums as virtual dojos where you are put to the test instead of hug boxes...or would you attend a martial arts class where "cuddle jutsu" is taught, the art to caress someone to death? As long as people like the "super duper intelligent" Aluzky, with an IQ of 143 or sometimes 134 or 136 can freely access our community, all babble about more tolerance is doomed to fail us even more than it failed us already.
In this very sense, I object your idea of becoming more accepting of mental illnesses. Not only will that reassure Joe Average that zoophilia is in fact a mental issue , often combined with other mental issues, but it also offers the sane ones among us as a sacrifice on the altar of "Idon´tcareus", the god of "tolerance". Tolerance and all inclusiveness have brought us here, to this point in history, with all the laws, all the organised "anti zoo" fractions and people like Arpaio, not the other way around. Don´t confuse that...and don´t fall for the idea that "more inclusiveness" will improve anything for us in total. I´d even say that zoophilia is the wrong place for anyone who has mental issues...these folks don´t need filter bubbles, they need professional help. If you´re familiar with so called "suicide forums", you´ll easily see why a general "caring" and reassuring attitude can quickly mutate into the exact opposing thing it is actually intended to be.
I´d absolutely agree to your opinion about hug boxes , people with mental issues and newbies...if, and that´s a big if, if we would not have other, more important issues in the real world. What you´re proposing here is what we Germans call "das Pferd von hinten aufzäumen" (to put the bridle in the horse´s mouth from behind) , what in fact is impossible to do..we FIRST need to establish a good and healthy community before we can even think of becoming a pinpoint for depressives and autists from the entire spectrum. To save one lost in the sea, you have to have a stable boat first...if your boat already is rocking, pulling someone in who´s panicked will only sink the entire boat and saves no one´s life.
Quote:
8 hours ago, 30-30 said:
Eagle, when Saturnine/Darkspirit appeared on the reddit zoo sub, my first reaction to him was giving actual advice, without any "bullying". Even after he pulled off his ususal "no,no, because..." , I remained rather friendly and offered additional options. Nothing changed. Especially this case of Saturnine isn´t bullying from my side, it has a certain "history" . If you don´t believe me, ask Silverwolf about Saturnine´s/ Darkspirit´s back log on reddit...and then you might view the whole thing quite differently in an instant. And what I find most amusing about your typical SJW approach is the simple fact that we, you, I , nobody really knows whether this guy actually is having all those physical issues (which I quit to believe after he still had "excuses" when I was bringing up hippotherapy etc....hell, there are folks out there who are total wrecks and still enjoy their monthly therapeutic visits to the many hippotherapy stables in Germany) or whether this isn´t just a huge trick he plays on us all ,with his ulterior motive to gather enough pity so some dumb fool says "Well, you poor guy, come over and fuck my mare for free"...ridiculous hyperbole? Nah, I´ve seen this happen quite often in several "zoo" communities. So you could also blindly defend one of those guys who are only out there to get quick and easy sex for offering a heartripping pity story. Mind that, please...we don´t know whether anything this guy tells us is true. I´ve seen people lying in huge amounts for less...
Are you saying that I'm lying about being disabled?
That my back isn't totally useless for anything that involves horses?
Do you think I wouldn't have gone to hippotherapy by now if it weren't for the fact that my family is always trying to control me because of this disability, and the fact that I can't go anywhere because driving isn't an option?
Do you really think I'm just trying to get "quick and easy sex" from your horses? I doubt any of you would let me pet your horses, or even get near them, let alone have sex with them.
|
